Jack Daw Project

[SlackerLM]

On 11/6/2015 at 0:02 AM, Khyodee said:

I'm surprised there is not much mention of using Envy or Wrath with your Daw crews (mostly Envy). Both can pack a serious punch and the extra movement tricks only help to keep them safe from retaliation.

Wrath dosen't fit my play style. Envy, on the other hand, was a crutch for a while. With access to 2 Trappers now, I am finding "I Pay Better" is finding a spot on many of my lists. With "Tally Sheet" and Brutal Effigy (w/Levi) in there to mitigate some of the hand loss. I bring in Sue a lot for that as well. 

[Golden Apple]

How many of the Guilty see table time in a given list? I find two of the models acceptable, with a paint scheme they may actually be pretty cool. The dismembered one, on the other hand, is a bit too haunted house for me.

[Patzer]

I use one most of the time, but two can be useful.

[daniello_s]

19 minutes ago, Patzer said:

I use one most of the time, but two can be useful.

Agreed with above . One is mostly enough. Two is a bit extravaganza to me and I would rather pick second Nurse instead

[Golden Apple]

I was just hoping the answer was less than three. Thanks!

[jonahmaul]

Definitely less than three!  I have also only ever used one at a time although I absolutely love the dismembered one so have painted that already and not the other two!  I pretty much only use one so that Jack can copy their action to make something Tormented and then as Jack never takes the action again it never loses the trait (usually to make Ama, Rusty, Taelor or Sue Tormented) otherwise I'm not sure I'd ever run any!

[Manxfaux]

Pure theory here.... but has anyone had any experience using Scion of the Void with Jack?

It seems like using her could free up points hiring secondary beaters as cheaper members can use her actions, namely the guilty/crooked men/drowned who don't have the greatest attacks and/or using mercs in conjunction with I Pay Better to make use of that brutal damage track and pretty sweet triggers, and the big drawback that it kills the scion faster than you can heal it gets mitigated by being able to heal her quite efficiently with the Nurse.

She's already pretty mobile so JD can only heighten this, dangerous enough that getting targeted and buried shouldn't be a problem, and at worst you can use one of Jack's AP to force a tormented enemy to target it anyway.

Being able to Blink someone like Pride, Sloth or Papa into the middle of the opponents crew sounds brutal, on paper at least.

[Jafar]

12 hours ago, Manxfaux said:

Pure theory here.... but has anyone had any experience using Scion of the Void with Jack?

It seems like using her could free up points hiring secondary beaters as cheaper members can use her actions, namely the guilty/crooked men/drowned who don't have the greatest attacks and/or using mercs in conjunction with I Pay Better to make use of that brutal damage track and pretty sweet triggers, and the big drawback that it kills the scion faster than you can heal it gets mitigated by being able to heal her quite efficiently with the Nurse.

She's already pretty mobile so JD can only heighten this, dangerous enough that getting targeted and buried shouldn't be a problem, and at worst you can use one of Jack's AP to force a tormented enemy to target it anyway.

Being able to Blink someone like Pride, Sloth or Papa into the middle of the opponents crew sounds brutal, on paper at least.

Idea is very neat
don't want to be party pooper, but please consider this:

- Scion has 8 WD, because you can only unbury her by borrowing her action in JD crew, she is left with 6 WD (she dies if buried at end of turn)
- With 6 WD left, you can only twice borrow her action per turn.
- Her combo should always end with nurse and full heal / paralyze

To sum up:

- Use scion, leave her in spot where she will be attacked
- Bury scion when she is attacked
- Borrow twice her action (Scian has 4 WD)
- Unbury Scion (2 WD left)
- Use Nurse to paralyze and full heal
- Use Johan to remove Paralyze
To fully use Scion bury/borrow mechanic you need at least to use 2 AP from other models each turn. (Nurse 1 AP for heal, Johan 1 AP for condition removal).

Don't know if that's good or bad deal, should be tested

[Manxfaux]

Yeh, she could really use that extra wound to make it three uses of her powers before she has to be brought back, although tbh I was actually thinking of the specialist for the condition removal so the nurse was free to heal someone else too (and it wouldn't effect how many uses you get from the scion).

It's probably not something you'd use every turn just due to the chain of actions that need to occur, but that seems to be the Scion in a nutshell: interesting and potentially game changing but complicated to the point where there are just more reliable options at that point level. A bit like Monty, where some extra wounds or less stones would see them as a more viable option.

Btw, while I'm currently trying to get to grips with Tara (hence trying to find a better use for the Scion) but this thread will probably mean Jack will be my next master, even though I picked up von Schill and Levi a while back, the opportunity to pull some Jammy Shit is just too alluring.

[Reagusmage]

Might have missed a discussion about this, but can't really check because I'm being a rebel and posting while I'm at work (terrible I know)...

Recently bought the crossroads seven and jack daws crew - What would be a decent list combining models from crossroads seven with jack daws base crew box?

[Fog]

I thought Crossroads WAS his crew box.

 

Seriously, he makes them amazing. All of them.

[admiralvorkraft]

One or two of the 7 make it into any of my Jack Daw lists. Wrath and Envy make good secondary beaters, Gluttony/Sloth/Lust are good control pieces. Pride and Wrath are great for attacking resources but I only take them with T&T Daw.

Daw himself gets one of two upgrade load-outs. His midfield support build is all the curses, Writhing Torment, Twist and Turn. That build runs with a crew of Tormented models, something carrying Creeping Terror. I would take two Guilty, Wrath, Envy, two other Crossroads and Lady Ligea.

The other build I run with JD is his "jump scare" build with all the curses, Betrayer and Scout the Field. That crew would be built more from Outcast staples so it doesn't seem like something you're interested in...

[Cinnamon Bear]

Out of curiosity, how self reliant is Jack Daw? By which I mean, how much does he depend on things from other crew boxes or multiple other sets to get to a decent state? Rasputina is a master who can easily stay in theme and be decent with only a few other small boxes, and while I'm not expecting that level, I'm curious if Daw is possible as a sort of "standalone" master.

[admiralvorkraft]

Because Montressor is so bad he wants at least one big beater from out of theme.

Otherwise you're pretty good with just Tormented models.

[Nukemouse]

Montresor is hardly bad, but he is certainly not a beater and anyone who read his card thinking he would be one should read more beaters! I agree though, Jack is at his strongest when hes got something out of theme he is transforming into a tormented. Still though if your playstyle doesn't involve huge beaters (though wrath sort of counts) i think he does fine with just Tormented models. The many debuffs and auras you can subject foes to can kill or disable them quite well and most Tormented are decently difficult to kill.

[admiralvorkraft]

Montressor is a glass tank. It's not a good combo, especially since Jack wants all your stones for defence/prevention anyway.

[Patzer]

19 hours ago, Cinnamon Bear said:

Out of curiosity, how self reliant is Jack Daw? By which I mean, how much does he depend on things from other crew boxes or multiple other sets to get to a decent state? Rasputina is a master who can easily stay in theme and be decent with only a few other small boxes, and while I'm not expecting that level, I'm curious if Daw is possible as a sort of "standalone" master.

Depends on what level you want to play at I guess. Jack can do ok in theme in a friendly game environment, like his box and CR7, but if you want to play competitively Jack like every other masters should look outside of the themed models.  

[daniello_s]

Considering the fact that Guilty (and Jack copying his action) can make few non-Tormented models a Tormented ones then pretty everything can suddenly be seen as his thematic crew

[Kalkris]

3 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Considering the fact that Guilty (and Jack copying his action) can make few non-Tormented models a Tormented ones then pretty everything can suddenly be seen as his thematic crew

And this is why Sue is an honorary XR7 member. :3

In all serious honesty, if you want a beater as badly as it seems you might (since you appear to be in a social meta that warrants it I guess), Jack isn't the right Master to field to those ends. You are better off with Leve, the Viks if you want a glass cannon, Misaki if you REALLY want a glass cannon, or maybe Von Schill or Tara (these are dependent on your needs/how versed you are with them), when asking around for beater support (Hamelin is IMHO worse for this than Daw). To me, this is the sort of thing that exemplifies why we select out entire crew after objectives are revealed.

HOWEVER: If you want a beater and don't have the option of anyone but Daw (or... HAMELIN - he isn't bad at all, but this isn't his place!), I would look to the Crossroads Seven and pick what you think will be the most helpful member(s) for pulping some face. Wrath in close range comes to mind, while Envy in the mid-distant range also works out for whatever its worth. I generally don't leave a Daw crew without 1-2 XR7 members in the roster if I can help it.

~~~

So, I do have a Tormented story/something of a partial batrep for y'all. I think you'll find it very pleasant to read. It's mainly about the Crossroads Seven (led by Wrath), but being that they are all playable with/under Daw, it's fair to put it here, I believe.

I had a 50ss story encounter today where my opponent was fielding The Dreamer. His crew was, roughly:

Dreamer w/3 stones
-Dreams of Pain
-2 other upgrades which I can't recall presently - they were inconsequential for reasons you'll read of soon
Teddy
Coppelius
Lelu
Alp x2
Daydream x3

Opponent had 2 Insidious Madnesses and an Alp in the wings along with Chompy, as per quo. He did not have access to a Lilitu so that was a bit of a bummer overall.

Meanwhile, I played the full Crossroads Seven crew a la Outcasts (I Pay Better was on Pride and The Creeping Terror was on Envy). Mistake #1: NEVER play Crossroads Seven in a story encounter a la rules manual/book 1.

We played with a Blind Deployment (which took about a half hour or so to set up, part of the reason this game ended so quickly in hindsight), and had Supply Wagon as the Strategy. I chose Frame for Murder on Wrath (because squishy squishy and Leader equals good Frame target) and Deliver A Message (I figured I could deploy a model right next to Dreamer if possible based on Blind Deployment positioning). Mistake #2: NEVER EVER EVER try to Deliver A Message to The Dreamer. He's far too mobile.

Meanwhile, my opponent takes Bodyguard on Teddy (which was not going to happen as we figured by the end) and... Make Them Suffer. See Mistake #1. I also don't own a Malifaux Child and thus I cannot possibly mitigate that issue at all.

Anyway, on to gameplay.

With my opponent and I both in the thick of everything, it was soon made clear in Turn 1 that my opponent was going to exhaust his entire Control Hand in the first third of the turn, and when that happened he would begin to have to take a lot of penalties (be it 2dmg aura pings, or Slow, or the results of actions being succeeded on my part, etc). As a result of this and a lack of time overall to play the game out, my opponent and I went into theoryfaux at the end of T1. In Theoryfaux, it was decided that Teddy, at 3 wounds, would die the next turn, denying my opponent any Bodyguard VP at all, possibly even before he activated. The Wagon would end up in my absolute control (me being the Defender), and while I might not have been able to Deliver the Message, I could at least deliver Wrath to some models scarier than Alps and his doom would ensue. All in all it would have depended on the results of the Supply Wagon, which we theorized I'd be good with.

So, with our run of the schemes, I made glaring errors both in crew selection (considering the type of game) and in scheme selection (considering my opponent's Master). My opponent could have taken the Neverborn-exclusive scheme Exterminate rather than Bodyguard, and gotten a bunch of VP instead of just handing it all to me upon Wrath's demise.

My question is this, though: In the case of the Dreamer, Story Encounters and their implications aside completely, are the Crossroad Seven models (as a full crew) the right counter? Are they even a decent counter at all (because I sort of can see it)? Furthermore, which 2 XR7 models would you omit if playing against The Dreamer with a Crossroads crew led by Daw (assume you are playing the other 5 members)?

~Lil Kalki

[Nukemouse]

9 hours ago, Kalkris said:

And this is why Sue is an honorary XR7 member. :3

In all serious honesty, if you want a beater as badly as it seems you might (since you appear to be in a social meta that warrants it I guess), Jack isn't the right Master to field to those ends. You are better off with Leve, the Viks if you want a glass cannon, Misaki if you REALLY want a glass cannon, or maybe Von Schill or Tara (these are dependent on your needs/how versed you are with them), when asking around for beater support (Hamelin is IMHO worse for this than Daw). To me, this is the sort of thing that exemplifies why we select out entire crew after objectives are revealed.

HOWEVER: If you want a beater and don't have the option of anyone but Daw (or... HAMELIN - he isn't bad at all, but this isn't his place!), I would look to the Crossroads Seven and pick what you think will be the most helpful member(s) for pulping some face. Wrath in close range comes to mind, while Envy in the mid-distant range also works out for whatever its worth. I generally don't leave a Daw crew without 1-2 XR7 members in the roster if I can help it.

~~~

So, I do have a Tormented story/something of a partial batrep for y'all. I think you'll find it very pleasant to read. It's mainly about the Crossroads Seven (led by Wrath), but being that they are all playable with/under Daw, it's fair to put it here, I believe.

I had a 50ss story encounter today where my opponent was fielding The Dreamer. His crew was, roughly:

Dreamer w/3 stones
-Dreams of Pain
-2 other upgrades which I can't recall presently - they were inconsequential for reasons you'll read of soon
Teddy
Coppelius
Lelu
Alp x2
Daydream x3

Opponent had 2 Insidious Madnesses and an Alp in the wings along with Chompy, as per quo. He did not have access to a Lilitu so that was a bit of a bummer overall.

Meanwhile, I played the full Crossroads Seven crew a la Outcasts (I Pay Better was on Pride and The Creeping Terror was on Envy). Mistake #1: NEVER play Crossroads Seven in a story encounter a la rules manual/book 1.

We played with a Blind Deployment (which took about a half hour or so to set up, part of the reason this game ended so quickly in hindsight), and had Supply Wagon as the Strategy. I chose Frame for Murder on Wrath (because squishy squishy and Leader equals good Frame target) and Deliver A Message (I figured I could deploy a model right next to Dreamer if possible based on Blind Deployment positioning). Mistake #2: NEVER EVER EVER try to Deliver A Message to The Dreamer. He's far too mobile.

Meanwhile, my opponent takes Bodyguard on Teddy (which was not going to happen as we figured by the end) and... Make Them Suffer. See Mistake #1. I also don't own a Malifaux Child and thus I cannot possibly mitigate that issue at all.

Anyway, on to gameplay.

With my opponent and I both in the thick of everything, it was soon made clear in Turn 1 that my opponent was going to exhaust his entire Control Hand in the first third of the turn, and when that happened he would begin to have to take a lot of penalties (be it 2dmg aura pings, or Slow, or the results of actions being succeeded on my part, etc). As a result of this and a lack of time overall to play the game out, my opponent and I went into theoryfaux at the end of T1. In Theoryfaux, it was decided that Teddy, at 3 wounds, would die the next turn, denying my opponent any Bodyguard VP at all, possibly even before he activated. The Wagon would end up in my absolute control (me being the Defender), and while I might not have been able to Deliver the Message, I could at least deliver Wrath to some models scarier than Alps and his doom would ensue. All in all it would have depended on the results of the Supply Wagon, which we theorized I'd be good with.

So, with our run of the schemes, I made glaring errors both in crew selection (considering the type of game) and in scheme selection (considering my opponent's Master). My opponent could have taken the Neverborn-exclusive scheme Exterminate rather than Bodyguard, and gotten a bunch of VP instead of just handing it all to me upon Wrath's demise.

My question is this, though: In the case of the Dreamer, Story Encounters and their implications aside completely, are the Crossroad Seven models (as a full crew) the right counter? Are they even a decent counter at all (because I sort of can see it)? Furthermore, which 2 XR7 models would you omit if playing against The Dreamer with a Crossroads crew led by Daw (assume you are playing the other 5 members)?

~Lil Kalki

I would omit pride nearly always and then if the schemes/strats are based on holding territory omit wrath or if they are violence focused omit gluttony.

[Patzer]

I am inching towards a JD return. With the CR 7 looking quite interesting, I got a couple of questions about the band.

If the CR7 would be slotted into tiers, how would they rank up?

Do they work well with Daw? 

Is the box worth its quite hefty price tag?

[Patzer]

Double post!

[admiralvorkraft]

They are all useful (with the possible exception of Wrath) in the right situations. Gluttony, Lust, and Greed are the ones I've gotten the most use out of.

[admiralvorkraft]

They are all useful (with the possible exception of Wrath) in the right situations. Gluttony, Lust, and Greed are the ones I've gotten the most use out of.

[admiralvorkraft]

They are all useful (with the possible exception of Wrath) in the right situations. Gluttony, Lust, and Greed are the ones I've gotten the most use out of.