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Yan Lo Needs More Ancestors


E.T.A. Hoffman

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I think Yan Lo at some point may earn himself a bonus upgrade to add a new twist to his playstyle (maybe something to boost the spirit approach with him?).

 

Last Blossom got cuddled in terms of choice since smoke and shadows was too good. Fuhatsu not being last blossom was the real miss in terms of models that could have used the characteristic (he would have also been the perfect model to hold both Hidden Agenda and Smoke and Shadows).

 

Fuhatsu doesn't really fit with the theme of last blossom and they definitely do not need another Henchman in that category. 

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Let's brain storm. How can we make Yan Lo interesting with only adding one upgrade to him.

Purpose!

 

Family Reunion

Cost : 3

 

1) Cast 6. Rebirth : Name one undead or spirit model which this model hired at the start of the game. If named model is not in play, summon named model at a casting cost of 10 + model cost.

 

 

or!

 

The True Path - Limited

Cost : 2

 

0) Forgotten Ancestor : Lower this models Chi by a max of 3. For each chi spent, one model within pulse 8 gains the ancestor trait for the rest of the game.

 

1) Empower Ancestor : Ca 5 TN 14 -> Lower this model's chi by 1. Target ancestor gains following condition until end of turn: Chi Infused: Choose any stat. This model gains +1 to that stat.

 

2) Overcharge Ancestor : Ca 5 TN 14. -> Lower this model's chi by 1. Target ancestor gains following condition until the end of the turn: Spirit Charged: This model gains +1 to all stats. When this condition would end, the model gains the following condition until the end of the next turn: Drained: This model gains -1 to all stats.

 

IDK! LOL I'm sure the numbers need work. But, I like the idea of Yanlo doing more for his crew with his chi. I think an upgrade that gave out various buffs based on his chi level could be cool. OH! Yah something like this maybe. 

 

Path of Chi

Cost 2

 

Yan Lo gains one of the following abilities based on his current chi condition.

 

chi = 0 : Aura 4 -> Friendly undead and spirit models gain hard 2 wound + 1

 

chi = 1 - 2: Aura 5 -> Friendly undead and spirit models gain hard 2 wound + 2

 

chi = 3 - 4: Aura 6 -> Friendly undead and spirit models gain hard to kill

 

chi = 5: Aura 8 -> Friendly undead and spriit models gain Terror 12 + Hard to Kill

 

1) Chi Eruption: This action may only be taken if this model has Chi+6 or greater. This model sets its Chi condition to 0. All friendly undead and spirit models within pulse 10 gain the following condition until the end of the turn. Spirit Swell: This model gains positive 1 to all damage flips.

 

Probably not balanced but you see where I'm going with these ideas. Right? lol. It would be cool. So you can take his Chi and use it for upgrades or giving out armor. Or you can save it and give out passive buffs. Or you can save it and dish out a really powerful buff but then you lose it all.

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I agree that some more upgrades wouldn't go amiss. I do like is that none of his normal upgrades are autotakes so it allows for use of faction upgrades or a master that doesn't soak up points. However, maybe it would be nice to get some normal upgrades that give him and his Ancestors a boost passively.

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I would like an upgrade that allows him to hire spirits from both factions ie resser if ten t or ten t if resser and quite like the idea of summoning onryo. Another ancestor would be nice but doubtful. If anything a new upgrade or two to change the flavour and make him a go to choice for something. Maybe an upgrade for some different triggers on spirit barrage, inreaded damage, maybe something like if kill enemy model you can dump two stones or cards and it stays with one wound gains spirit and you take control of it. Would need two suits so it isn't easy to get off.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I want a Yan Lo to gain some ancestors that are only Ten Thunders or Reser. I could see a cool Ancestor Ten Thunder Archer being neat or a Ancestor Zombie Punk for the resers being good add to Yan Lo while actually giving some incentive on making a choice of faction. I do not think that will happen though, cry.

 

As for non Rare 1 Ancestors, that will not happen and would water down some of the flavor of Yan Lo.

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Hurm.

 

I wonder what would happen if a later release had a set of cheap (1 Stone?), Rare 1 TT Upgrades which each did nothing save give the one who had it a trait: Last Blossom, Black Sheep, Darkened, Ancestor (this one probably also makes Living models into Undead), etc.

 

Would this be too good?  Or just the thing to really shake up a lot of undersupported thematic crews?

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Pretty certain they won't do such a thing. The keywords are major limiting and balance factors that interact with other rules. Being able to give a keyword to any model that can take the upgrade is either going to straight jacket any additional synergy they might want to bring out in the future, or it's going to break existing rules, at least in my opinion. Being able to control who gets what keywords I think is one of the major tools for balancing and I doubt they are going to let that particular genie out of the bottle.

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Hurm.

 

I wonder what would happen if a later release had a set of cheap (1 Stone?), Rare 1 TT Upgrades which each did nothing save give the one who had it a trait: Last Blossom, Black Sheep, Darkened, Ancestor (this one probably also makes Living models into Undead), etc.

 

Would this be too good?  Or just the thing to really shake up a lot of undersupported thematic crews?

Most of those wouldn't do much. E.g. the only thing Ancestor would do is let Chiaki (who btw is a living ancestor) move conditions to you I think, you certainly couldn't use reliquary since the upgrade wouldn't stay with the dead model; Last Blossom would only let you carry Smoke and Shadows. You couldn't hire models with it since you have to hire a model to put upgrades on it.

 

If what you meant was that it should let the respective Masters hire any model in the game, then that would open up so many potential combos that Justin would be crying under his desk.

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An interesting suggestion for an upgrade. For the Ancestor variant though, to be useful (cut out the issue that was mentioned above), it'd have to A) grant the Ancestor characteristic, B) bury the model and heal model to full when reduced to zero wounds, and C) let Yan Lo revive the model with the upgrade as if it was dead, not buried. That would be a cool twist, though.

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I see a lot of 'Yan Lo is boring' and trying to solve it by giving him more models to summon. If you give him minions to summon, you just dilute the difference between him and the other resser summoners. He has a very limited summoning pool, made up for by the part where those summons are very strong, costly models, and one of those guys is a mini-summoner himself. If you give Ancestor to some existing model, it's not letting him bring anything to the crew that wasn't already available. You could already bring whatever you want to now make an Ancestor. Does being able to rez that new ancestor once per game so it's around another turn or two suddenly fill in whatever void of fun you see him as having? I really doubt it.

 

If there's a problem with the old guy, it makes sense to me that the fix is on his cards and his abilities, not someone else's. And really, I don't think anyone's given anything other than "He's not for me", at most it's "He's not flashy", and I doubt either of those rise to the level of worth a fix in Wyrd's eyes.

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The fact of the matter is that a miniature game will never be perfectly balanced, and we all know it.

 

The goal is to get everything as close as possible and provide enough variation that different things rise to the top at different times.

 

But, on average, at any one time, you will have a few top tier masters, a wide middle tier, and a few low tier masters. Not really much to be done about that.

 

I think Yan Lo is mid tier. Some here are arguing he's low tier, I won't dispute them.

 

But I think one of the great faults of the open beta is that, when faced with a model that isn't the very best in the game, people discuss how to "fix" it with errata or lament about what should have been done and how they had other ideas in the beta, rather than brainstorming how to use the model as it is.

 

As we start moving into territory where we're only adding new models, I wonder if open beta is the best route to take. A game can not stand that faces constant redesign. Yan Lo is how he is. You can swap ideas about strategy, lists, or interesting plays and it may do you some good. The design is done. 

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The design is done. 

In a sense, he could get new upgraded. Like I hope all master will at some point. I have always felt it was one of the strong points of the upgrade system. With that said, if that where to happen, I hope it is done in order to bring something new to him rather for the sake of "balance".

Other than that, completely agree. My feeling is that the game and its players would be better off with a long off period from any form of testing. "Open Beta" can be reduced to: "Hey, this is what we devs have cooked up! You now have two weeks to show if there are any broken interactions we have missed."

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In a sense, he could get new upgraded. Like I hope all master will at some point. I have always felt it was one of the strong points of the upgrade system. With that said, if that where to happen, I hope it is done in order to bring something new to him rather for the sake of "balance".

Other than that, completely agree. My feeling is that the game and its players would be better off with a long off period from any form of testing. "Open Beta" can be reduced to: "Hey, this is what we devs have cooked up! You now have two weeks to show if there are any broken interactions we have missed."

 

Indeed he may. But you have all seen what's in the book coming in August. So you've got a good year and a half with him as he is (assuming he gets another Upgrade at all, not here to make promises).

 

I think future open beta may well look like that, assuming there is one at all. 

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Maybe it's my playstyle, but Yan Lo just looks... good? He's a master that demands a layered strategy of controlled aggression, which is fitting for the immortal soul of a kung fu wizard. You can't summon all the ancestors, but you can summon all the ancestors BACK. All ancestors give you a second chance at half wounds, and ANY model with half its wounds on turn 4 is a force to be reckoned with.

 

Ugh. UGH. I am not at all into Resurrectionists, but I love the eastern horror models, and every time I look at Yan Lo he looks BETTER. Curse you Wyrd, what have you wrought?

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I've got to agree. Just played against him again today and I think he's great. Lightning Dance is a more reliable (to much more reliable) Tangle Shadows, he picks up Chi for breathing, Hun Po Assault has Mei Feng reconsidering her life choices, Reliquary turns solid models into incredible ones, and the sheer amount of board control his core crew has is nuts - between Chiaki's pushes, Komainu spamming Slow, Terracotta Curse, Izamu's disengaging strikes, etc.

 

I'll grant that most of the work that got done was done by the Ancestors, but Yan Lo made them all better at it, and made everything easier. Unlike you Ferrossa I don't like his aesthetic, which is good because otherwise he'd be right up my alley and I don't want to buy another crew. Or at least not that one (come to me Ironsides...)

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I think he is near the top of the mid tear and is good if you do not fall into the trap of taking all of the ancestors, I would take 2-3 of them as taking much more is really point heavy. The ancestors are strong, my main issues with Yan Lo is the same that I have with most dual factions masters and that problem is I do not feel that being dual faction matters a lot for him. This means that he can either bring the stuff he wants all the time, such as most of the 10 thunder masters, or that there is not enough in the other faction that he likes to justify taking him that way, such as Guild McMourning.

Also I really could go either way with public beta, but people will continue to talk about how to "fix" masters and models. Most all the masters I have seen and played against look good in my opinion.

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or that there is not enough in the other faction that he likes to justify taking him that way, such as Guild McMourning.

 

Hey! Guild McMourning is amazing. Just not a mad poison bomber like Resser McM.

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I have only seen him played once or twice. From what I understand he can hand out a good buff and he is a MI monster but lacks the poison focus that his loves and is known for. Rather the issue with him is that his crew may like and enjoy him but he gains little from an all guild crew, as only the lawyers feed into his mechanics. This weakens his catalyst and his expunge which are 2 strong abilities he has.

I think a guild assassin model would be neat and feed a little more in to McMourning abilities.

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Off Topic: Guild McMourning gets fantastic targets to hand Precise to - namely riflemen and Austringers. Witchling Stalkers make nurses EVEN BETTER, and McMourning generally assumes a support role. If I had to make a comparison I would say that Resser McM uses poison the way Sonnia uses burning - to make things die - and Guild McM uses it like Kaeris uses burning - it gets people into position, it helps get markers down, etc. Well Resser McM is probably strictly stronger due to expunge summoning I like masters that bounce between damage dealing, crew support, and scheme running.

 

Which brings us back on topic. You can get all the ancestors plus a couple of cheap minions, Toshiro and Chiaki's upgrades, and Reliquary in 50 stones. That's more models than I start on the board when I run Ramos, and while you can't get the same kind of bulk summoning with that crew having the ability to replace almost all of it, plus Toshiro's various buffs and summoning make it viable. Besides, it's 7 activations, that's not unusual for 10T.

 

I should not start playing Yan Lo, I should not start playing Yan Lo, I should not...

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That will run you 36 pt or 39 with the soul porter (if you take Izamu you will want the soul porter push most likely) for all the ancestor and the upgrades, not a bad price tag. I just prefer 2-3 and having enough for more mooks, though once the tengu are out that might change. I hate proxying more than a model or two though I have no problems if others do.

At 39 pt you have 11 left, that is two 5 pt models and 5 in your catch with 8 models. Not bad, and I love the ashigaru but I still feel the full ancestral court is a bit much to field. Though for each of there points I think they are spot on and they are good, except Izamu who point aside I see him in almost every reser list I play vs.

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Who do you consider low tier, then? I, naturally, understand if you don't wish to answer the question but I would be very interested in hearing your opinion :)

 

That took much longer to be asked than I thought it would  ;)

 

On the open beta/general feedback thing, I think people are always going to throw ideas for upgrades and changes out. Maybe the open beta process causes people to think about that type of thing a bit more than they would otherwise, but it still happens all the time in games with no open testing. If you limit it to a couple weeks with a "These models are done unless you prove to me something is broken, so go break things" directive, it may help the.. not entitlement, but that feeling given off when models like Yan get picked over.

 

And I can feel the grass roots groundswell Yan Lo movement taking off. He's like the anti-Levi right now, instead of "Everyone's taking him because he's easy mode so we better figure out how to beat him", it's "he's a challenge? Oh, I'm up for a challenge, I better figure out how to win with him". Yan Blow no more! Will have to change my name yet again. 

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