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Summer Showdown June 14th @Wayland Games Centre Essex


dmarkham

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The Continuation of The Wayland  Showdown Series, runs on Sunday the 14th of June between 10:00 and 20:00.

 

Event Details:

 

This is a 4 Round event using Fixed Factions

In Each round players will make a 50ss crew from an Unlimited Pool models.

Schemes at strategies will be determined by the Tournament Organisers, and given to all players at the start of the event.

 

This event is being run on the day by Mike Marshall and will be a ranked event.

 

Tickets go on sale next week.

 

Further details can be found on the Wayland Games Centre Facebook page

 

www.facebook.com/events/948884361808453/

 

 

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I'm keen on this again, but I have a sort of generic question (probably the wrong place for it..?) about the logic of handing out strats/schemes at the start - rather than publishing them beforehand.

 

Last time schemes and strats were also handed out at the start of the day (rather than immediately prior to each game), and it seemed this meant that everyone sensible ( ie not me!) then just worked out their list for each round at the beginning of the day whilst we were milling around waiting to start.

 

For me as a relative newbie this meant I ended up struggling to work out decent lists for each game in the short time available, and as a result I suspect that I was both a/ slow at the start of each game, b./ slow during the game as I was struggling to work out what to do with my often rather random collection of models, and c/ staggeringly incompetent during each game (see point b/ !!) - none of which were probably that much fun for my opponents either. 

 

If I'd seen the strats in advance I'd definitely have been a quicker opponent at the start of each game and also in-game, as I'd have had time to work out a plan and a list in advance. I think that I'd also probably have been a more enjoyable opponent to play against (not necessarily good, just more enjoyable) rather than beating up on a dithering idiot .... I'd almost certainly still have lost (!) but it would have been because my opponents were more experienced, better players of the game, not because I was a blithering idiot caught in the headlights with a sub-optimal crew and no coherent plan (well, most of the time!)

 

Don't get me wrong - I full appreciate that at some level the 'iron man' type "work out your list on the fly" tourney setting is a real key part of the meta of the game, and for really good players its the ultimate test of skill that brings out all the subtleties of master vs master, faction vs faction and scheme vs scheme inherent in Malifaux... but all I'm suggesting is that as a relative newbie, and coming from other types of wargaming where pre-event list-building is a big part of the skill and enjoyment of the game, that having sight of the strats beforehand would make it a lot better for me - and maybe also for my opponents.

 

Bearing that in mind, I'm not sure where this first thing publishing of strats at the beginning of the day actually sits in that spectrum...? Is it a common half-way house between pre-published and "iron man", and does that mean this event is intended as a similar mid-level challenge ? Or am I reading too much into this ? 

 

Thoughts and comments anyone..? 

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Just trying to express this slightly more concisely:

 

- Whether the schemes and strats are published

  • in advance, or
  • on the day, or
  • at the start of each round ...

...a player who is experienced at this game can still pick their list once they know the opposition. Assuming they are good at Malifaux, that should still give them a meaningful advantage in the game all three scenarios.

 

- Having pre-tourney sight of schemes and strats allows less experienced players the opportunity to pick a list for each specific scheme/strat combo before knowing their opposing crew. They can try and tweak it once they know the opposition, but for new players (who've probably not played lots of different crews before) that's not going to be too likely anyway... 

 

The newbie choosing crew in advance based only on schemes/strats isn't anyhere as good as picking a list for the strat/scheme AND opposition crew, but has the following (generally positive) effects on gameplay for both players:

  • quicker start to each game
  • quicker turn-by-turn play from the less experienced player
  • the more experienced player is more likely to find themselves playing a unskilled opponent with some sort of plan, rather than an unskilled opponent with a very poor poor / no plan.
  • All of the above is (arguably) more interesting than bunny-bashing for the experienced player, and more educational for the new player. 

 

The downside is that its not the hard-core "pure" form of the game... but serious players can still pick their crew on the fly anyway - the only real difference is that newbies have a better  chance of contributing something to the game if the shemes are known in advance.

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I appreciate the sentiment of declaring schemes in advance, but my personal feeling is that it could lead to 'net lists' and takes some of the skill away.

 

I think that's certainly true, however ...

  • standardized/optimized "net lists" already exist (let's face it, a lot of this forum is "what models/combo should I use for...?") 
  • with the possibility of facing 36-odd masters, and hundreds of different models in every game, are "net lists" ever really going to be as good as a good player picking a good list on the fly..?
  • of all the many and varied skills needed to do well in this game, should "can you build a competent list in a short period of time?" really be - arguably - the most important? 

As a new player, it's the last point that I'm really looking at here. A schemes-on-the-day format places a pretty steep learning curve in front of new players that they will need to learn to overcome if they are to be competent - and that step takes place even before they get their figures on the table and start playing the actual game. 

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Its an interesting perspective and certainly good to hear from "a less experienced player" on this.

 

The Logic behind handing them out at the start for the last event actual came from the opposite perspective, that being that the more experienced, more "connected" players would be more likely to be playing the optimal lists as they have had plenty of time to prep the perfect crew for facing different factions/masters they feel they may face against on the day.  The less experienced player would have only one list they fall back on?

 

Not saying this as fact, but to give an idea of where the logic came from.

 

That said, the Showdown series are aimed as you say as you say as a slightly more challenging event.  We've been running 3 types of event at the gaming centre over the last 9 or so months.

 

Welcome to Malifaux, aimed at encouraging new players to take part and get their first taste of a Malifaux event.  These have been "Fixed Crew", with the idea that people can just turn up and play, meet other players and have some fun games.

 

In The Name of the Master: bridging the gap, this is a fixed master event, so players have less to worry about, but still get the "tailor your crew" experience of Malifaux.  Also this is a 3 round event with 2.5 hours play time, which is much more comfortable for players still getting to grips with the finer points of malifaux.

 

Seasonal Showdown: Full on Malifaux.

 

I think going forwards, your post makes mean lean towards that Welcome to Malifaux should be declared schemes and strats, and possibly also In the name of the master, whilst The seasonal showdowns, potentially stay as they are. 

 

any thoughts?

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I'm up for this, who can say no to a bit of Essex-faux.

 

On the subject of pre-announced schemes and strats I think the current system works. Either at the start of the day or if the is a pool pre announced just the strat in advance.

 

If you are a new player I'd suggest building two different lists and see which strats and schemes works for each list, then match your list to the scheme pool on the day. this will cover you until you are confident building lists on the hop. 

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Its an interesting perspective and certainly good to hear from "a less experienced player" on this.

 

The Logic behind handing them out at the start for the last event actual came from the opposite perspective, that being that the more experienced, more "connected" players would be more likely to be playing the optimal lists as they have had plenty of time to prep the perfect crew for facing different factions/masters they feel they may face against on the day.  The less experienced player would have only one list they fall back on?

 

Not saying this as fact, but to give an idea of where the logic came from.

 

I can see where you are coming from ... however with my (ahem) very limited experience of (ahem again) 2 events it was probably the opposite.

 

At Gertifaux, where I had the schemes and strats in advance, I could spend "slow-time" in advance of the weekend designing different lists that would support a broad plan to "have a go" at each scheme/strat.  I'd generally pick which 3 things I'd be trying to do, and then pick a list to do that - for example I decided to include a Rail Golem and a lot of Gamin in a "bodyguard" + "protect territory" game, and I had a plan to try and use the Golem to do a late run into the opposition half in that game, and the Gamin to just, well, be Gamin.

 

Because each time I had a list that I had already formulated a plan what to do with, I was able to concentrate on actually playing the game itself. My pre-planned lists didn't really change when I saw the terrain or the opposition - I just accepted the fact that I have no idea about playing against most masters and treat that part of the game as a learning experience. 

 

At Spring Skirmish however I faced 4 brand new masters (to me) in 4 games - but as I didn't have the experience to be able to tweak a list to match the opposition anyway, that made no difference to me.

 

What did make a difference was that I don't (currently) have enough games under my belt to have a set of "that's my Breakthrough list" lists on file to pull out of the bag/back pocket/memory banks as soon as I know the strats and schemes - which in retrospect the more experienced players clearly did. Instead I - stupidly - just tried to conjure up what almost always turned out to be sub-optimal lists at the start of each game, which meant I was always somewhat hamstrung and also incompetent during each game.. good if your opponent just wants the points, but maybe not if they want a good game and/or to get to turn 5? 

 

So, what am I wittering on about... ? Well, if I'm right in assuming (as you also seem to be doing here) that no-one is really building a list from scratch on the fly each game, but instead that the experienced players are (by and large) actually pulling one of a set of pre-prepared lists out of their toolkit in response to seeing the schemes and strats anyway, does it really matter all that much if they see the schemes 1 week, 1 day or 1 minute ahead of the start of each game? The response is still to wheel out the same pre-prepared scheme/strat specific optimized list, and then maybe tweak it for the opposition. 

 

However for a newbie like me who doesn't have that big library of existing lists in place, it sort of pushes you down the route of trying to pre-plan just one or two advance lists. Which I guess is OK, but having the chance to pre-plan all 4 would be more fun for me, I'd learn more, and I might well be a better opponent to play against too. 

 

I'm conscious that this is just my perspective, and also that my background in other wargames is very much one of pre-event list building so this may just be a "me" thing... but it would also be interesting to see what approach to list building at events that other new (and experienced) players honestly adopt ? 

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I don't think the top players use pre-made lists at all. I know I never build a list until I see the strat/schemes. What more experienced players will do is look at schemes and immediately know which of their models can be used to accomplish them. So if I'm playing Dreamer (and I always am) and breakthrough/plant evidence are both in the pool the first thing I do in building a list will be adding in a couple silurids and/or insidious madness' to focus on getting the scheme running done. Next I will look at what models will help deny those same two schemes, so often Hooded Rider will be in because he has such a huge threat range and can remove markers whilst killing scheme runners. However, if I have more time to prepare a list I can figure out exactly which models are perfect for the given setup that I can't do in a limited time where I am more likely to take models I know I can rely on even if they may not be the perfect choice. As Joel Henry has said, pre-announced schemes allow the most experience players to tailor their lists from good to great. I love them because I love to obsess over list design, but I don't think they give any competitive help to new players.
That being said I do think that they may help new players feel more confident and less nervous as they aren't stressing about their model choice as well as everything else so I'm not against pre-announced schemes.

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Taking a core group of reliable models in every game at my first tournament (at TTN funnily enough) helped me greatly throughout the day. You know, my fallback models that I used in pretty much every game anyway - with Marcus: molemen and Myranda. I'd never take a model to a tournament that I'd only used a few times so my time before each game was spent selecting only a few other models.

While I can see why you might want to have both the Strategies and Schemes pre-announced to select 4 different crews, there are other factors like terrain and your opponent's faction to consider as well when building a list.

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....t I don't think they give any competitive help to new players...

That being said I do think that they may help new players feel more confident and less nervous as they aren't stressing about their model choice as well as everything else so I'm not against pre-announced schemes.

 

Yep, thats kinda summed up my ramblings as well - thanks !

 

Pre-announced schemes and strats helps everyone raise their game ( :+fate ), and probably/arguably helps experienced players even more than it does newbies.

 

But it's definitely a lot easier and less painful for new players ( :+fate  :+fate

 

 

 

Now, what on earth is a hooded rider, and should I be worried about them .... !?  :(

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Be worried about riders always ;)

I understand your point, and I do have sympathy. I attended a few tournaments last year and felt woefully unprepared. You have actually given me something to kick start my blogging with so I'm going to come back soon with some detailed ramblings on how I learnt to write lists on the fly.

However, pre-releasing schemes is not the answer in my opinion. As others have stated while it seems a boon for newbies, it just allows everyone to be one step a head which allows more experienced player even more time to adjust for terrain/deployment/opposite faction.

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Why worry about making good players better by releasing schemes early, after the first round the "great" players will then be facing off against each other more than likely due to their lists. Surely then these players will then have better games because they are both playing their optimal lists against opponents of similar play level. 

 

What it helps is newer players enjoy themselves more as they feel they are playing the best they can, even if they get well beaten in the first round, at least the newer player can feel like they put up a good fight, rather than floundering around wondering what they should be doing with the list they threw together in 10 minutes. 

 

I think it's worse when the opponents for round are announced ahead of schedule - Malifaux Rankings gets all the hits then :D as players try to guess the faction/master (if its not announced) of the opponent and build counter options based on the strategy. Goes against the "Turn up and play" mentality that people who don't like schemes announced early use IMO 

 

I do wonder whether a tournament format structure could be in place where newer players could be encouraged to play, and not thrown into a baptism of fire. Something like:

Apex Level: Only the no. of rounds announced (no strats, no schemes, no faction restrictions - true "turn up and play"!)
Elite: No. of Rounds, Strats, Faction/Master restriction announced
Intermediate:  No. of Rounds, Strats, Faction/Master, 1st round opponent all announced
New Player: No. of Rounds, Strats, Schemes, Faction/Master, 1st round opponent  all announced

 

 

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For the people that are saying giving the starts and scemes at the start of the day is not so good for experienced players - would have to disagree, I think this sits in a space to give maximum advantage to more experienced players.

 

Broadly players can find out strats and schemes at one of three points.

 

1. In advance.

2. Start of the day.

3. Right before the start of the game.

 

With the first option, yes experienced players get loads of time to plan and improve their lists as well newer players. But the outcome is far better for the newer player. The jump from 'I really am not sure what I am doing and will therefore probably play like a clueless muppet' to 'I at least have a coherent plan and an idea of how to implement it' is huge. For experienced players, there list might get  better, but going from good to better is far more incremental.

 

With the second option, where you get a short amount of time to check and figure out - the less experienced player is far less able to develop a coherent plan so falls back on I know what these models do so will take them. The expereinced player, with far better knoweldge, can go through the 'breakthrough therefore a silurid, insidious madness and a hoodrider should work, hang on a minute want to think through the best model to puts wings of darkness on'. So the less experienced players list / plan does not get a chance to develop due to lack of time but the expereinced player gets enough time to make sure they go from good to better.

 

WIth the last option, - this is basically the same as giving  starts and schemes at the start of the day for Mr Bunny, as he will still go with 'I have an idea what these models may do so I will go with them'. Whereas the experienced player gets less time to improve their list.

 

The giving strats and schemes at the start of the day seems to give maximum advantage to the expereinced player to the disadvantage of their less practised opponent. Which seems a bit unfair and I am fairly sure not what a tournament organiser would acttually want to do.

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