Severe Terrain

[scarlett fever]

Just moved cities (and therefore playgroups) and came across a difference in playing movement through Severe Terrain.

It's not important how its played (and in fact it took 2 games before I noticed we were playing it differently) but I'd be curious to know how other groups play it.

 

I've always played that whilst any part of the base of your model is within Severe terrain your movement cost is doubled.

My opponent played that once you enter Severe terrain your movement cost is doubled, however as soon as your base contacts open terrain you move full again.

 

Be curious to know how other groups play and if there is any consensus.

[Jeebus]

Ive always played by the first scenario (which makes 50mm models a pain in the terrain.) 

[Ausplosions]

Yeah, as soon as any part of the base touches the terrain.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Same.

[Malal]

ditto but I have seen others play it the second way

[Tapdancer]

4" wide terrain has an 8" cost to cross. Never thought to add 60mm (for a 30mm base) which seems to be what this post suggests.

[Myyrä]

I think it's fairly obvious that you need to consider the width of the base too, unless you decide to play so that being partially within the terrain doesn't count as being in it.

[StuffedKiwi]

I'm part of the group that Scarlett Fever has recently left, and as was said we play that as long as any part of a model's base is within severe terrain, its movement is halved. The way the rules work for measuring whether a model is "within" an aura or within range of something, seems to require, for consistency, that being "within" severe terrain will also mean having ANY part of a model's base within the base of the piece of severe terrain.

[paradoxstorm]

For a normal, unimpeded walk of two inches we measure from the front of the base such that the very front of the base moves two inches.  

 

We do not continue moving the model an extra 30mm until the back of the base is two inches from the starting position of the front of the base--that is we do not move the  model 2 inches + 30mm (~3.25 inches) for a two inch walk.  

 

If severe terrain is 2 inches across, a front to front measure of 2 inches representing 4 inches of walk should clear the terrain--otherwise the severe terrain is effectively 2 inches + the diameter of the base requiring ~6.5 inches of walk to cross 2 inches of terrain for a 30mm base model and ~8 inches of walk for a 50mm base model.   

 

Isn't this addressed in the rule book somewhere?

[binkys]

Page 42 of M2E Core in the example graphic on the bottom of the page uses an ice gamin as an example:

 

 

This last Ice Gamin also declares a Walk Action. It moves 2" until it comes into contact with severe terrain. Because severe terrain counts as double the distance moved, this Ice Gamin may only move 1" through the terrain with its remaining 2" of movement.

 

The specifying of "Comes into contact with..." leads me to believe the intention is that when any part of the base is within the terrain it counts as measuring the movement as double.  Which would also imply that yes, moving a 50mm base through 2" severe terrain would take move movement than moving a 30mm base through it as it would be in contact with the severe terrain for a larger distance.

[enderwiggin]

Agreed on the first, we start paying more movement as soon as base contacts the terrain.

[paradoxstorm]

Sadly the Ice Gamin example is rather useless for resolving the question of when movement penalties end.  For me starting the terrain penalty when the model comes into contact with severe terrain means that the terrain penalty ends when the model comes back into contact with regular terrain.  

 

The rules also state that "To move a model measure from the point of its base closest to the direction it will be moving.  Determine how far the model will be moving and then move the model that distance, ensuring no part of the model moves further than  that distance. "   (pg 42 big rule book, emphasis added)

 

To me that indicates that movement is measured from a single point on the base of the model. When that point enters severe terrain movement penalties apply.  When that point leaves severe train movement penalties no longer apply.

 

Hey Wyrd, we need an official ruling!

[Myyrä]

To me it seems like it would make sense for the terrain penalties to end when the model leaves contact with the terrain.

[Bengt]

"Open" isn't a terrain trait, only "Severe", "Hazardous", etc are, p 60-61. So if you are partway into terrain piece with the "Severe" trait you are not both touching "Open" and "Severe", you are only touching "Severe" because "Open" doesn't exist. And as long as you are touching a terrain piece with traits you follow the rules for those traits.

[Adran]

Sadly the Ice Gamin example is rather useless for resolving the question of when movement penalties end.  For me starting the terrain penalty when the model comes into contact with severe terrain means that the terrain penalty ends when the model comes back into contact with regular terrain.  

 

The rules also state that "To move a model measure from the point of its base closest to the direction it will be moving.  Determine how far the model will be moving and then move the model that distance, ensuring no part of the model moves further than  that distance. "   (pg 42 big rule book, emphasis added)

 

To me that indicates that movement is measured from a single point on the base of the model. When that point enters severe terrain movement penalties apply.  When that point leaves severe train movement penalties no longer apply.

 

Hey Wyrd, we need an official ruling!

 

If your model is 1/3 in a peice of severe terrain and they walk perdendicular along the severe terrain, such that the "point" of the model never enters severe would you move it 4" for a 4 " walk even though the model has sort of been in severe terrain the whole way? So I can walk into the severe and then end that walk, and whilst the next walk never has me walking out, because of the direction change I'm not penalised?

 

I personally play it that if any part of the base is in, then movement is reduced. I Can see where Paradoxstorm is coming from, but it gets a bit too complicated if you ask me.

[LunarSol]

Any part of the base touches, movement is reduced.  Wasn't even sure there was room for another interpretation there.

 

And yes, this means that it's important and helpful to minimize the size of Severe terrain.  a 0.1" wide spec of rough terrain reduces movement by 1.2-2 inches by itself.  Beware the GW forest, as its essentially impassable for things without unimpeded.

[Kadeton]

An even simpler example: a model moves 1" into Severe terrain, which costs it 2" of movement. With its next move action, it wants to move out again (back the way it came). Since the point you measure the movement from is already outside the terrain (30mm > 1") does it only cost 1" of movement to cover the exact same distance that it cost 2" to cover on its last move?

 

We've always played that any part touching incurs the penalty.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Agreed. Any part even touches the severe terrain, you suffer movement penalties until none of your model's base is touching the terrain.

[Vorschlag]

The reason we play be the second ruling is as follows:

When moving you measure from the front of your base to the end of your movement also measured to the front of your base.

The rule for severe terrain states:
Areas of severe terrain slow a model's movement.
Moving through severe terrain costs double the distance moved.
For instance one inch of movement would be counted as two inches.

This is also shown in the example of the ice gamin on page 42 of the large rule book where the ice gamin moves two inches till the front of it's base (or atleast the facing of the direction it is moving) touches sever terrain and only allows it to move 1" through the severe terrain.

I have taken the term "through" to refer to the distance between the starting point of your move and the end point of your move, i.e only terrain which that line moves "through" would have an effect on movement.

[Ausplosions]

Is that also how you play auras? Because it's the same thing. 

[enderwiggin]

Yeah, Binkys used the Pg. 42 example better imo (in the sense that no interpretation is needed, it's clearly written the gamin moved normally until the moment it hit the terrain). That example + Bengt's point above about open terrain and the rest makes it pretty clear to me there should only be one example.

[paradoxstorm]

Page 42 of M2E Core in the example graphic on the bottom of the page uses an ice gamin as an example:

 

{the rule quote did not follow }

 

The specifying of "Comes into contact with..." leads me to believe the intention is that when any part of the base is within the terrain it counts as measuring the movement as double.  Which would also imply that yes, moving a 50mm base through 2" severe terrain would take move movement than moving a 30mm base through it as it would be in contact with the severe terrain for a larger distance.

 

I read this differently.  I read it as the leading edge of the base determines the nature of the terrain your are currently moving through and therefore penalty or not.  When the leading edge first contacts the severe terrain the movement penalty begins.  To me it follows that when the leading edge of the base first comes in contact with non-severe terrain the movement penalty ends.

 

This is the experience one would have walking through a patch of wild raspberries or thorny bushes.  When you first enter you are slowed, but once you begin to leave, before your entire body has left, you return to normal movement.

 

Clearly this interpretation only works if you are passing through the severe terrain, not walking along it.  If I am partially in the raspberry patch one foot is constantly getting grabbed by the plants slowing my movement.  In Malifaux the leading edge of your base is constantly entering severe terrain.  

 

Unlike auras, movement always "hits" you from the front.  You are facing into the bushes or you are facing open space regardless of what your backside is doing.  Auras, on the other hand, can hit you from any direction, front, side, or back.  

 

Any play group is welcome to play this any way they want--as long as everyone plays consistently there really shouldn't be a problem.  But it would be best for all if the rule were clear and I don't think it is right now--as evidenced by this discussion.

[Myyrä]

 

I drew you guys a picture. The green square is terrain and the black circle is a base of a miniature.

 

In situation A, would you say that the model is inside the terrain? To me it seems like it is.

 

In situation B, would you say that the model is inside the terrain? To me it seems like it is.

 

What happens when model moves so, that we get from situation A to situation B? I can't see how model could move starting and ending its move inside the terrain without moving inside the terrain. Would the terrain only slow the model down when moving B to A and not the other way around? Would the situation change if the model did not take the most direct route out of the terrain? If it would, moving with your base partially within terrain would not slow you down at all if you angle your movement so that you are moving ever so slightly away from the terrain.

 

All this talk about leading edges and whatnot incorporates terms that aren't really used in the rulebook. The model has no front or side or rear. There are only bases and either they overlap or they don't.

[Oathius]

Your base only needs to be partly touching it to gain the cover from it so don't see why you wouldn't have halved movement straight away. Halve the movement as soon as you touch it, simples.

[Myyrä]

Your base only needs to be partly touching it to gain the cover from it so don't see why you wouldn't have halved movement straight away. Halve the movement as soon as you touch it, simples.

Your base doesn't need to touch terrain to get cover from it.

[Tapdancer]

Your base only needs to be partly touching it to gain the cover from it so don't see why you wouldn't have halved movement straight away. Halve the movement as soon as you touch it, simples.

this thread suggests something far more complicated. Even if you have largely cleared the severe terrain and are measuring across clear board you must facture in the double cost until the back of the base is clear.

If this is correct then i have been doing it wrong in last 20 tournaments attended and nobody has picked up on it.

the only time i have done anything more complicated than measure form the front (relative to the direction of movement)is if I have to skirt round another model or blocking terrain and outside edge passes through the difficulty terrain at which point I apply the movement penalty for the distance the edge of the model is in the terrain.