Looking at Sonnia, where to next?

[Dirial]

Isn't Kirai a bit of a special case though, since she essentially gets a free instant engage against Sonnia the first time someone near her in her crew takes damage? 

 

Yes, but I managed to play around that. Ikiryo didn't hit the board all game. I played a pretty good game, if I might say so. Still lost.

[zFiend]

Or it speaks about people totally focusing and hating on something once they got it stuck in their mind that it's something to hate.

 

Well not really what was discussed here from the comment that people should stop recommending them, now is it? It's not hating. It's just that they are really good and potent tools if people recommend them so much that it's got to a point of tiring and calling out people to think outside the box.

 

Different issue and wrong side of the discussion really but fair enough.

 

Completely disagree. It's just stupid internet perception. It works for a few people in their meta and all of a sudden everyone is doing it.

Come by my LGS any time with that combo and I'll happily point out the error in that thinking.

 

I don't think we are talking about just a few people whose meta is being affected if it keeps on popping up and annoying you so much. Nor is it a stupid internet perception either.

 

Also if you so surely know why there is such an error in this thinking you are more than capable of discussing it here then? Rather than have me fly over there spending a vast amount of money to get your answer. As well as making that point clear to many others here to prove your point of it being a stupid internet perception and thinking that has errors in it? 

[Tapdancer]

Guild is starting to surge in UK tournament play. This year they are constantly performing well in competitive play.

Back on topic, get the Ortega crew box, you want Frank..

[Dirial]

Just so you don't get me wrong: I think those two abilities are really good, and the beta could have handled them better.

 

I also think that they are not overpowered or an issue. They are just annoying and powerful, but they are by far not alone in this game in that regard. That's why I call it 'hating' that people continously point them out as an issue without any solid evidence that they are anything more than annoying.

[dgraz]

 

I don't think we are talking about just a few people whose meta is being affected if it keeps on popping up and annoying you so much. Nor is it a stupid internet perception either.

 

I completely disagree. If it was more than perception, then Guild would be at all the top tables....all the time. It isn't. Not even close.

And no.....you really can't just talk about it. Because I say this....and you say what you say. I say it's beatable....and you say it's not....back and forth, back and forth.

[Bodiless]

This sounds like a job for Vassal!

[zFiend]

And no.....you really can't just talk about it. Because I say this....and you say what you say. I say it's beatable....and you say it's not....back and forth, back and forth.

 

I'm not saying it's unbeatable. But since you seemed like you had such an easy way to deal with it and talk so much against all that is said on the other side I would have thought you might have been able to then share your thoughts on it on a more constructive level than "come here and I'll show you." 

 

I can say that to everything people complain about "it's nothing, come here and I'll show you how to break it" because no one will fly to Finland to actually question that. It's not constructive, it's dismissing really. 

[zFiend]

Just so you don't get me wrong: I think those two abilities are really good, and the beta could have handled them better.

 

I also think that they are not overpowered or an issue. They are just annoying and powerful, but they are by far not alone in this game in that regard. That's why I call it 'hating' that people continously point them out as an issue without any solid evidence that they are anything more than annoying.

 

They aren't by far the only things. But they are the ones still being discussed.

[Math Mathonwy]

I also think that they are not overpowered or an issue. They are just annoying and powerful, but they are by far not alone in this game in that regard. That's why I call it 'hating' that people continously point them out as an issue without any solid evidence that they are anything more than annoying.

What sort of evidence would you like? I haven't seen nor played a Guild crew in months that didn't have Francisco in it. Is that enough evidence? No, of course not.

But what was the evidence behind the Lynch downgrade? Was it somehow more compelling?

Now, realize that I'm not really arguing for errata here. I do agree with ZFiend that having had those two abilities be Master-only would've been nice. Similar to how some other things could be tweaked a bit (Dumb Luck could've been +2 Damage to take an example from my favourite Faction). They don't break the game but neither did the Lynch thing, really.

But my main point is that the demands for "evidence" are silly as the only thing accepted as evidence would be an insane winning streak at major tournaments when, if one or two models are a bit too good, that really isn't something that should be expected. Lynch didn't win left and right all the tournaments before the errata, either.

[Dirial]

What sort of evidence would you like? I haven't seen nor played a Guild crew in months that didn't have Francisco in it. Is that enough evidence? No, of course not.

But what was the evidence behind the Lynch downgrade? Was it somehow more compelling?

 

I think, besides the heated arguments, our opinions are pretty near. I would have liked those abilities to be implemented differently. I'm also not easily convinced because the aren't that big a deal in my meta (a play Guild without Francisco quite often, for example), and I apologize for the other side of the coin of that psychological effect: Once an opinion is stuck in the head, it's not easy to change it. I find other effects at least as strong (say, Abra Cadaver, for example), as well.

 

I just tire of the same arguments over and over. It seems that no discussion of the Guild faction can be had without an argument over Franc or Papa, without them ever leading to something other than "Insurmountable crutches" vs "Mainly uniquely implemented effects".

 

I just tire of defending them against the same old arguments. I could stop, of course, but that would strengthen the impression that the whole player base thinks they are over the top.

[dgraz]

But since you seemed like you had such an easy way to deal with it 

I do. It's called tactics. You do that on the table. I can't teach that on a forum.

 

As Dirial said, it's good....it's annoying. I'm not going to break it easily all the time......but it's no worse than a dozen other things I could mention.

[dgraz]

 

I just tire of the same arguments over and over. It seems that no discussion of the Guild faction can be had without an argument over Franc or Papa, without them ever leading to something other than "Insurmountable crutches" vs "Mainly uniquely implemented effects".

 

I just tire of defending them against the same old arguments. I could stop, of course, but that would strengthen the impression that the whole player base thinks they are over the top.

Here, here. Which is basically all I was trying to say when I first mentioned it...when I said it was tiring.

[admiralvorkraft]

On the other side of that........it's also tiring to see 'use Francisco and Papa' in every thread. Learn to think outside the box people.

 

...I see what you did there.

 

Now I will say that having played Sonnia both with and without Papa-in-the-Box it's less that running with him feels broken and more that running without him feels really annoying. Now that's definitely insider bias, and coming from a player in a meta full of fast engagement. With Papa-in-the-Box Sonnia can start a turn engaged, (0) for Df 6, get away, and still have an impact on the board that turn to a degree that's impossible without him. Is that broken? Maybe, maybe not. Does it seem dumb to run without it? Kind of. A fix I would support (for both of them) is a clause ending the buff when they leave play just to stop Box abuse.

 

I will say that I think the Malifaux Child is a bigger problem with any master that can place terrain since that can absolutely shut a game down.

[zFiend]

I just tire of the same arguments over and over. It seems that no discussion of the Guild faction can be had without an argument over Franc or Papa, without them ever leading to something other than "Insurmountable crutches" vs "Mainly uniquely implemented effects".

 

I just tire of defending them against the same old arguments. I could stop, of course, but that would strengthen the impression that the whole player base thinks they are over the top.

 

But that doesn't mean there isn't an issue that you are tired of hearing about them. It actually to me personally talks a lot about the other side, that there might be something there. If you two are annoyed and tired, you don't need to take part in the discussion.

 

Also the opinion that they aren't over the top is atm shared by you two. So because of the opinion that they aren't over the top that you two share you are making sure everyone else thinks that way too and doesn't think they are over the top? That to me sounds like a really bad reason to take part in a discussion. All you are doing, to me at least it seems, is you are making sure everyone thinks like you do and don't disagree with you? 

 

 

I do. It's called tactics. You do that on the table. I can't teach that on a forum.

 

 

That can be said absolutely about anything and all the time. It also proves absolutely nothing on either side nor contributes to the conversation in anyway.  

[Adran]

They are easy tactics. They are quite powerful, so its good advice to give to new players to use. But I don't think they are too strong.

I can't remember the last time I lost to a Guild list with Fransico in. I've lost to a few guild players, but haven't had the problems against lists with Frank.

 

I've not faced, nor seen played the Papa in a box list (And my local club contains Joe Wood who exclusively played Sonnia last year, just missing out on top UK guild to Joel), but to be honest It seems a really expensive way to give sonnia a boost. Yes, the 13 points don't do nothing else all game, but when you add in the 9 points for Frank, and a decent sized cache, and a way of actually adding burning to a model, oh and some way to actually score points, I'm not worried by it on a board with some reasonable blocking terrain.

May well be my play style, and having plenty of practise against Sonnia and Francisco.

[Dirial]

That to me sounds like a really bad reason to take part in a discussion. All you are doing, to me at least it seems, is you are making sure everyone thinks like you do and don't disagree with you? 

 

Hold it right there. That's the point of a discussion, is it not? You have an opinion, I have an opinion, we both state them in the hopes that the other person sees our respective points? I could just as easily say that your reason is bad. For me, asking me to not partake sounds a lot like you not wanting me to disagree with you.

[zFiend]

Well the Death Marshal would probably be there anyway, it can easily carry around Papa Loco in the box. So it's really just adding the Papa Loco to a Sonnia list (or any Guild list). And when Papa gets out of the box, he is usually in the thick of it close to enemies and that's where he usually does something other than skip using his AP. So they do their part apart from being a 13ss to Sonnia. 

[dgraz]

 

That can be said absolutely about anything and all the time. It also proves absolutely nothing on either side nor contributes to the conversation in anyway.

Which is basically exactly the same as this;

 

I think that Papa Loco's Hold This and Francisco El Mayor maybe should have included non-master. Those things just make the game horrible. 

Since hypocrisy is one of those things that really sets me off, and since I think I've done my part enough to derail this thread, I'm going to walk away now before I get myself in trouble.

[zFiend]

Hold it right there. That's the point of a discussion, is it not? You have an opinion, I have an opinion, we both state them in the hopes that the other person sees our respective points? I could just as easily say that your reason is bad. For me, asking me to not partake sounds a lot like you not wanting me to disagree with you.

 

Not really no. I'm not trying to convince people that they are over the top really, I try to discuss the matter to get past it, I think they might have been non-master, but I'm not saying I want the whole community to think they should be. They make the game horrible to me at times. That's my opinion and that I have been struggling against them. That's why I am disucssing the matter.

 

I'm not asking you not to partake. I'm just saying maybe you shouldn't if you are so tired of the particular discussion? It's not a crusade you need to be on if not by your own choice. Now I do respect your opinion and I am not trying to say that you shouldn't speak your mind. I didn't mean it with offense mate, really.

 

You can absolutely disagree with me, that's the point of discussion. But coming in saying there's nothing to it and I can easily break it but I'm just gonna stroll away and say nothing other than that, isn't taking it anywhere it's just being dismissive. Be it out of being tired of the topic or whatever. 

[Bodiless]

They are easy tactics. They are quite powerful, so its good advice to give to new players to use. But I don't think they are too strong.

I can't remember the last time I lost to a Guild list with Fransico in. I've lost to a few guild players, but haven't had the problems against lists with Frank.

 

I've not faced, nor seen played the Papa in a box list (And my local club contains Joe Wood who exclusively played Sonnia last year, just missing out on top UK guild to Joel), but to be honest It seems a really expensive way to give sonnia a boost. Yes, the 13 points don't do nothing else all game, but when you add in the 9 points for Frank, and a decent sized cache, and a way of actually adding burning to a model, oh and some way to actually score points, I'm not worried by it on a board with some reasonable blocking terrain.

May well be my play style, and having plenty of practise against Sonnia and Francisco.

 

I would love to see you, or Dgraz, or Dirial, post up a set of Vassal screen shots showing how you would counter this kind of crew for Sonnia. Not only would it be helpful to those of us who struggle against her, but it would also be very helpful to people starting the game with her to see where the crew is vulnerable. Especially since it is true that a huge amount of Guild crew advice given for her defaults to "add Papa and Frank". It would also take the discussion out of the internet vacuum and actually give some concrete situations to discuss. 

 

How about it? Is anyone willing to set up a chess problem type of scenario showing the weaknesses of the papa-in-a-box sonnia list?

 

Edits made to address embarrassing number of typos. I clearly need more coffee...

[zFiend]

I would love to see you, or Dgraz, or Dirial, post up a set of Vassal screen shots showing how you would counter this kind of crew for Sonnia. Not only would it be helpful to those of us who struggle against her, but it would also be very helpful to people starting the game with her to see where the crew is vulnerable. Especially since it is true that a huge amount of Guild crew advice given her defaults to "add Papa and Frank". It would also take the discussion out of the internet vacuum and actually give some concrete situations to discuss. 

 

How about it? Is anyone willing to set up a chess problem type of scenario showing the weaknesses of the papa-in-a-box sonnia list?

 

 

Very well said. 

[Myyrä]

Add Papa and Frank is a good advice to Guild newbies, because: 1) They come in the same box. 2) They are available in plastic. 3) They are pretty good.

I could tell newbies that they might want to add Peacekeeper and Austringers to some crews. They are pretty good models. However, that wouldn't be very good advice, because they would have to hunt for metal models that are far from easy to find.

[zFiend]

Add Papa and Frank is a good advice to Guild newbies, because: 1) They come in the same box. 2) They are available in plastic. 3) They are pretty good.

I could tell newbies that they might want to add Peacekeeper and Austringers to some crews. They are pretty good models. However, that wouldn't be very good advice, because they would have to hunt for metal models that are far from easy to find.

 

Also a very good point.

[Adran]

Just looked, and the tournement when I beat Joes Guild crew (Sonnia and Frank and Sam) seems to have been about the only tournement I didn't write a report for last year (lost love 2). (we finished 2nd and 3rd behind Mike Marshal, who I lost to in the last game because I didn't pay attention and killed his malifaux child and did weak damage to a torkage on the last turn, where as if I had focused on the Torkage, I would have killed it and denied him 2 points, giving me the win, and the child had nothing it could do.)

It was squatters rights. I used Marcus. I attacked Sonnia with Marcus on turn 1 before she activated. . My Cerberus flipped a squat marker turn 1 and discarded imbued energies turn 2 to leap and charge killing Frank.

I think Marcus died turn 3 or 4, but took up a lot of crew to do so.

the game ended turn 5 with the death of my last moleman, but Joe had only been able to flip 1 squat marker by that point (his entire crew was held up my my rushing beasts) and I won 5-4. I think I killed Frank and 1 witchling. Sonnia summoned 3 witchlings, but barely left his deployment zone.

 

I've never looked at vassel, so don't know if I can really help with that.

There certainly isn't a magic set of rules to follow, and If you've read my battle reports I have an unorthidox and random style, which does mean I  doubt I'd reach the same solution to the problem 2 games running.

[Dirial]

You can absolutely disagree with me, that's the point of discussion. But coming in saying there's nothing to it and I can easily break it but I'm just gonna stroll away and say nothing other than that, isn't taking it anywhere it's just being dismissive. Be it out of being tired of the topic or whatever. 

 

Okay, now I get what you were trying to say a lot better.

 

Please note that I didn't say that there's nothing to it. My point was that "They make the game horrible" is such a broad statement that I just cannot sit by and let that statement go unquestioned. The discussion would be a lot more constructive (and that's what I'm trying to achieve by taking Math's points and relating them to mine above) if the argument had been "I really hate how I always struggle against those abilities and that a lot of Guild players rely on them as crutches". It's just that I cannot stand hyperbole, even if it is a long established way of calling attention to issues.

 

That said, to the constructive points: I don't have Vassal, and I also don't believe that this particular issue can be broken down to chess problems. If it could, an experienced player like zFiend would have no need for the discussion. Some broad strokes to think about:

 

I struggle to make the combos work when my opponents disrupt my positioning game or activation order. Both abilities rely on a very short range. Luring Franc or his target throws a huge wrench into this, for example.

 

The Papa problem is more difficult to overcome, as Papa is in a box and quite dangerous if he comes out. Obey-like effects are pretty strong here, as any try to use Pine Box releases the boxed model, usually in a position where the only model eligible for Hold This is the Marshal or his target. Also, my opponents tend to try to destroy Marshals regardless... If the opponent hides the Marshal, he took 13 SS out of his game.

 

Also, I really hope you play with enough hard cover. The additional goes a long way. Of course, Sonnia has ways to get around it, but that's additional set up your opponent has to do, and with 13 SS away, Burning is usually harder to come by.