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Sensitivity in the painting community


Ikvar

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This is something that have been bothering me for quite a long time, but something just happened on the "A Wyrd Place" FB page, that I really need to write this.

 

I have often been a bit miffed with how sensitive a lot of people are in the miniature painting community, not just here but also on other miniature sides.

 

Basically the feeling I get is that you are only allowed to say "omg that is so awesome!", and any other comments are not really allowed. The very few times I dare to write anything, I usually start out with a nice comment, and then in the most diplomatic and nice way, point out something that would make the figure look even better. Or maybe just give my random thought about the miniature, but always in a polite and diplomatic way.

 

But no matter how careful I try to be, I would say about 80% of the time, my comments will either be ignored completely, or get a very negative and aggressive response. 

 

Before I started this hobby a little over a year ago, I have been both drawing and painting pictures, and were active in both of those communities. And I have NEVER experienced those kind of behavior there, quite the opposite people were mostly more happy to get pointed out what they could do better, then "just" another nice compliment.   

 

Anyone else that have noticed this aswell, or have I just been unlucky?

- or maybe you even agree with this behavior, and I just need to learn to hold those thoughts to myself? 

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I think there are a lot of casuals who want to be happy with their work. Then there are hobbyists above that who like to learn a new thing, so criticism goes over better.

If someone criticized my painting, I would be annoyed. I'm a bad painter. I know it. I'm just happy if I get something done.

Conversely, if someone criticized my writing or podcasting, I would welcome it because I am interested in getting better.

Many people are unclear what they want when they share publicly. I try to be good about asking if someone wants support or criticism - although even that question ruffles feathers.

At the end of the day, I've seen what you're saying, and I think the key is doing your best to recognize your audience before you post. Or you can say whatever and risk some backlash ;)

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:+fate  :+fate  to what Aaron said. I've been an artist for as long as I can remember (ever since I was little all I wanted to do was be something artistic) so I've learned over the years to take all criticism....even if I didn't ask for it. But, like Aaron said, there are a lot of casual painters that are happy that they finished something and they're simply sharing their joy....any criticism comes as negativity to them. They're in a little bubble of happiness...then someone gives criticism and their bubble pops.

 

I like to give constructive criticism as well.......when you've been around the block a few times like many of us you like to share your knowledge.....you remember when someone taught you a trick or technique that heightened your ability and you want to return the favor. I've learned to only give criticism if someone asks for it.

 

You have to understand, that in your drawing and painting communities, they're a bunch of artists and it's a pretty poor artist that can't take criticism. But in the miniature community, most of the people are gamers first......painting is totally secondary......they haven't learned to accept criticism.....whereas artists know that, other than practice, it's the best way to improve.

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I'm immensely wary of saying anything about people's painting - as Aaron and Dgraz said, knowing what people want in terms of critique is very difficult. Even when people say they want critique to improve, there's a whole range of different levels of that. I've been told that a freehand line isn't perfectly straight in a competition entry, which was good to hear at that point. Usually, I don't care if it's perfect or not so that kind of advice wouldn't bother me either way.

 

It's one of the reasons I don't post often in painting threads, and when I do I often wait to be asked for advice because saying 'how much criticism do you want?' reads badly a lot of the time, no matter how carefully you write it (and I'm not saying you've been anything other than polite, I don't think I've seen you be rude ever...).

 

So yeah, it is a bit of a tricky one. I like it when people say up front if they're happy to have it painted, or if they're looking to get a little better, or going for competition and really wanting to be pulled apart. If they don't, I can never work out what they actually want  :)

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Criticism is just an honest opinion and people who are easily offended by it forget that when they post a pic on the Internet for all to see. It doesn't matter who you are or how good you are at painting, people will always have an opinion.

On the flip side, giving your opinion is difficult when you can't see the person face to face. That way, you would be able to judge what level your criticism can be pitched at to help someone improve and not invite unnecessary negativity.

I studied architecture at university and have had many 'crits' where months of work is torn apart in front of you. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth it does make you better, if only as a self preservation mechanism to not be in that position again!

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Thanks for all your comments, I can truly see what you guys mean about the whole "artist vs gamer". I still dont fully agree with what it has become though, as a community that is afraid to criticize and learn, is a community that will never evolve and move forward. For me being on the artist side of the hobby (sounds really snobbish to say that O_o), standing still in my "art" means death... well in a more abstract kinda way anyway ;)

 

I think its sad when you have some of the best artist on the side like Mako, saying that he dont even dare to share out of his wast knowledge, then you really have a problem.

 

... maybe we should have a rule to write something like "criticize me" in the title, so everyone on the art side of the hobby, know that they can go there and talk with like-minded people, who actually want to improve and all that?

 

This way people wont even have to ask if they want to be criticized.

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im a self taught model painter n im happy if i get my minis up to what people term as table top standard, however i always listen to people with whatever suggestions they have as u cant get any better if u dont try something new to yourself or get out of your comfort zone.

 

And that is exactly what I mean, you wont get better if you just keep doing the same, repeating the same mistakes every time.

 

This might sound a bit harsh to some of you, but in the end I honestly think you are doing people a disservice when you call something that looks like it have gotten a single coat of paint on it, and dumped down in a bucket of wash, and then other people call it a masterwork. 

 

Of course I wont go to the picture and just say it is horrible, neither of us would get anything positive out of that. I will normally say something like "really nice colours you have chosen! but if you want to make it even more awesome, you could try to paint another layer of paint after the wash, to make the miniature a bit more clean"... but even that people get offended from. Its not like I would go to such a miniature, and start telling him to do NMM, or how he should use glazes etc.

 

But anyway, as I said before maybe we just need to make our intention with the painting blog we make more clear, by writing it up front in the title or something :)

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Asking for feedback too offensively is also maybe a bit much for others, maybe some just like to have a look and say if they like something and not give an in depth analysis of the color scheme used and improvements that could be made. If we assume the casusal gamer does not want crittique, then said person maybe also doesn't want to give it but still just say if he likes something. Or maybe these people dont dare to give a critical feedback because they feel their painting standard is way below that of the person asking for feedback. If the basecoat-wash painter gave you a feedback on your painting style, would you appreciate it? Or would you dismiss it thinking "what does he know about painting"...

 

I for example would love to get constructive feedback on my work. I dont have any close friends painting, so whatever I come up with is what I teach myself and lern from looking at other people work. I also love a constructive discussion. Still, I'm always hesitant to give a crtitical feedback to the top painters here, like Mako, SC, Viruk and others because their level is above mine. I also dont want to talk others into giving me feedback, as it takes quite a lot of time to write a feedback and people should feel like doing so. For some of us, english is not our mother language so it takes even longer to compose something we think is polite, fluent and contains everything we wanted to say.

 

So yeah... maybe a little tag (feedback welcome) or something might be an idea, just inviting others to give feedback if they feel like doing so. Also, just asking a specific question like Ikvar did on his Graves today is probably a good approach.

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Personally, if you post your pics on the internets, I feel that you are at the mercy of the public and the internets can be a scary place - not a very good place to get an ego boost that's for sure.

I know when I look at models its to get inspiration and I often go in with a "what would I change about it" mentality so that may factor into it - if others are the same way.

I know what I'm good at and what I'm not good at so putting a "I didn't even attempt to blend because it takes too long and I game with these models, so I went with a sharp cartoony kinda look" disclaimer or similar would be a good step - and that's the responsibility of the OP.

Basically, expect criticism and don't post if you're sensitive, pretty much.

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Or just be aware of the fact that if you put your models up for display on a forum you need to have your "big boy" pants on, because not everyone is going to like it. And some may criticise. 

 

If you want nothing but praise for the work, take a photo, and then put that photo up on your mother's fridge. 

 

Hehe, while I fully agree I was going for the more diplomatic approach ;)

 

@Jotun was that a comment of what I now have done in my painting blog?

- am I being to aggressive in what I have written? 

 

And yes I will absolutely listen to what everyone have to say, even if the person had trouble putting on a black primer ^^

Movie and food critics are mostly not able to do anything they are criticizing, but people still value their opinion because of their (mostly) wast knowledge on the subject. So I will fully respect and welcome critic from everyone :)

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I started painting again 2 months ago after 13 years hiatus (I played Warhammer when I was a kid.).

When I finished my first model I was like: "This... is the greatest thing that ever happend to humanity. It's like staring in the eyes of the god himself!" I took a photo and posted it on the forum of my gaming community. Few people said that they like it and told me what I could do better, but the most important thing is they told me how I can achieve it and why is the way I am doing it not the ideal one. The most helpful advices were the most specific ones, like: "Do sharper highlights here, because the ones you do are getting lost." or "Here is the picture of nice and sharp Non-Metalic Metals."

I thought: "Well... I should at least give it a try. And if I don't like it, I can always repaint it later." I finished second model and compared it with the first one and thought: "The first one looks like sh... shishkebab. I can't wait to feel the same about the second one."

 

I found few things that work, few that I didn't like, but mainly got better as a painter. I mean... like ever so slightly better. I am ashamed to admit it, but the worst thing is, that I really thought that the first model was nearly perfect :D

I am grateful for their constructive criticism and advices, because I want to get better. But if someone does't, the only reason why they took the photo and posted it is that they just want to be praised and I do understand why even constructive criticism might upset them.

 

So... my advice as someone from the opposite side of the barricade is: "Please, tell us what we are doing wrong, because we can't se it. Be specific and tell us how to correct those mistakes."

For those interested in psychology, read about Dunning-Kruger Effect (Wikipedia: The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate.).

And if someone gets upset and doesn't listen... well, it's their loss, you tried to help.

 

Also... If you are affraid that you might offend someone, you could try Feedback Sandwich. That's when you start with a compliment, then constructivly criticise and finish with another compliment.

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I for example would love to get constructive feedback on my work. I dont have any close friends painting, so whatever I come up with is what I teach myself and lern from looking at other people work. I also love a constructive discussion. Still, I'm always hesitant to give a crtitical feedback to the top painters here, like Mako, SC, Viruk and others because their level is above mine.

 

Not jumping in elsewhere on a bunch of this, but I do want to say, at least with Mako, so long as your feedback is polite, he'll listen to it. He may disagree, but what's awesome is that you'll learn something from it. I can remember when he did the Undead Justice crew seeing something that went against all the advice I had seen with his Miss Terrious. Namely, that you want to have a sharp contrast on the model to draw attention to the face, rather than, say, the barrel of the gun. His reaction to me saying this was 'Normally that's correct, here's why I did this instead.'

 

So don't be afraid to give feedback to people who are further along than you as well as people who aren't as far along as you are. You might be able to see something they missed, or you might get to hear why they did something you didn't expect instead.

 

My contribution to the overall discussion here is pretty simple. Don't be a jackass. There is a way to offer constructive criticism that is building and encouraging, and a way that is basically just aggression and tearing down disguised as 'help'. It is on the critiquer's part to learn how to do the first one, not the listener. The listener needs to learn how to accept feedback, but this is a two way street. If someone jumps in my thread and wants to offer feedback, but does it in the 'I hate this, it looks stupid' manner, I'm ignoring them, and blocking them so I don't see it. Your tone matters just as much as my reaction. And I am not under obligation to listen to someone attacking me.

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My contribution to the overall discussion here is pretty simple. Don't be a jackass. There is a way to offer constructive criticism that is building and encouraging, and a way that is basically just aggression and tearing down disguised as 'help'. It is on the critiquer's part to learn how to do the first one, not the listener. The listener needs to learn how to accept feedback, but this is a two way street. If someone jumps in my thread and wants to offer feedback, but does it in the 'I hate this, it looks stupid' manner, I'm ignoring them, and blocking them so I don't see it. Your tone matters just as much as my reaction. And I am not under obligation to listen to someone attacking me.

 

I will start out by quoting myself:

 

"Of course I wont go to the picture and just say it is horrible, neither of us would get anything positive out of that. I will normally say something like "really nice colours you have chosen! but if you want to make it even more awesome, you could try to paint another layer of paint after the wash, to make the miniature a bit more clean"... but even that people get offended from. Its not like I would go to such a miniature, and start telling him to do NMM, or how he should use glazes etc."

 

If that is not polite enough, I dont know what is. There is a fundamental problem when people keep saying "your tone matters" or "be nice" etc. the problem is that communication in the written form can be quite problematic if the reader insist on reading whatever I say in a negative tone, as he is not able to see me or actually hear my voice. That is why I am getting so tired of trying to help people in this community, and that is why I think there is a major problem in this community that we need to work around, in order to let the "artist" side of the hobby grow.

 

I had a discussion with someone on the A Wyrd Place FB page yesterday, where I said nothing to disrespect or anything, however a guy still thought that I was being "slightly condescending", and therefore decided to rage on me. Here is the first part of the discussion:

 

Me: It looks really good, however remember that the thing she is holding, is actually her own skin :)

Him: it can be whatever the artist chooses it to be. If I wanted to paint it up as a floral table cloth, then it's a floral table cloth!!! Do your man dollies the way you want, others will do theirs the way they want.

 

And that is even a mild case, I have experienced much worse(!), and that is why I am tired of this "just be more nice" thing. I start out with a compliment and then just point out a simple fact, it was not even a real critique of the figure but more just me pointing out a random fact... and he STILL got pissed.

 

There are also limits to how much energy I can be bothered to use on being nice and polite, when I am in fact already using my energy and time in trying to help. 

 

I have worked a bit in a kindergarten, and even a bit with teens for teaching them how to paint and draw, and nowhere have people been as childish as some people are in this hobby. The fact that I need to sugarcoat everything I say to such an extreme extend... just because I want to help people... I quite honestly think its amazing.

 

And I know some of you will think this is very harsh aswell, but its so frustrating to keep being told these things when I am only trying to help.

 

But again, I truly hope people will start using my idea with writing something about wanting critic in their thread title, so the people wanting to help know where they are wanted/welcomed. Until then I think I will just completely refrain from writing comments to peoples pictures, so I dont hurt anyones feelings/pride or whatever.

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Oh, I didn't mean anyone in particular in this thread, Ikvar. My apologies there. I understand your frustration and agree with it. In my opinion, you're doing it perfectly, and people definitely are overreacting. I don't think you're being harsh, not even with this post. However, I have seen some people where their opening is 'I hate this, it looks dumb, do this instead'. I just wanted to address the other side of this issue that even as much as people really need to learn how to accept criticism, that there is some criticism where it is offensive because of how it's done.

Once again, apologies for being unclear. :)

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For those interested in psychology, read about Dunning-Kruger Effect (Wikipedia: The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate.).

 

 

I love psychology and this is certainly one of the factors that impacts how people fail to appreciate appropriate criticism.

 

Another, in the U.S. at least, is the broader societal notion that education should be painless in the sense that students never experience failure.  Having never experienced failure/criticism many people are unprepared for criticism.  Spending your life being told that everything you did is wonderful/amazing.  Having always won a prize in every competition (because everyone gets a trophy) leaves people unprepared for criticism.

 

But there are also people that aren't confused, they simply want to be part of the community and show folks what they've been up to.  If I ever chose to post photos of my painting I would be in this category.  I am a hack/amateur.  I am not now, nor will I ever be, an artist with a paintbrush.  I'm not confused about that concept, but I am still having fun with the painting and if I were to post photos it would be in the interest of having fun and being part of a social group.  

 

But I probably won't post online because it is devilishly hard to communicate the "hey look I actually have something painted" joy in a text based format while stating that you are not interested in critical feedback.  It is fairly easy to put a disclaimer up front declaring that you are looking for critical comments to help you improve.  But what about the gamer/amateur who just wants to share their joy at having finished a crew?  This is where the internet is hard.  In the flgs it is clear to anyone who is remotely paying attention that I DO NOT consider myself a brilliant painter.  And they respond to the need that I, and many like me, actually have--the need for some recognition that I am playing models that have more paint than primer on them.  For me personally "hey that doesn't suck" is praise and is all the assurance I want.

 

The miniature showcase on this forum seems to be populated primarily by artists or those who are looking to become artists.  For them diplomatic critical commentary should be both expected and welcome.  

 

As I see it, the AWP facebook group is populated by gamers who are looking for a pat-on-the-back for having gotten some painting done.  For the most part they are not interested in critical comments--congratulating them on having gotten two, six, or ten models painted that don't suck is all they are looking for. 

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I'm pretty sure edonil wasn't referring to your post Ikvar - he's all for criticism given politely and constructively. He just doesn't think that people should learn to tolerate abusive or arrogant posts, since conversation involves both parties being polite and constructive even if they disagree

He give me critique and questions my choices regularly, which is great because I actually have to think why I did something and often the answer is 'I could probably have done that better the other way'. Then we both learn.

If he came in with the attitude of "I can say what I please without trying to think about how it comes across and you have to put up with it", of "I know what you should have done and you're an idiot for doing something else" (neither of which I see in your example there) he'd be on my ignore list faster than he could type sorry ;)

Edit: totally ninja'd...

Also, on one of the purely painting forums I used to frequent (before that very attitude of 'this way is right, your way is wrong, how dare you' put me off) we had three tiers of thread.

Tier one was people basically painting for pleasure and not really looking for heavy critique. Maybe they'd get a few light hints, but mostly it was for a sense of community and to show what they were painting.

Tier two was a bit more critical, with colour theory suggestions offered, rough areas mentioned, things like skin tones looking waxy etc, and always suggestions for future things to keep in mind or work on.

Tier three was competition pieces, and brutal critique. That was where the slightest imperfection in blending was picked out, where the direction of the gaze/position of the pupils and irises was corrected, any tiny error. It's also known as "tell me - I can take it" on another forum. That's where you went to get your work shredded, for maximum improvement.

Honestly, I wasn't a huge fan of tier 3. It was painful to watch or to critique in, and even more painful to actually face it yourself. I usually stuck at tier 2 and a few people I knew well would give me tier 3 advice on the side when I had a particular piece I wanted to really push myself on and asked them. I knew they were being helpful no matter how harsh they were, and how to read their posts. They knew how to write them as well.

That tier system does require people to be able to couch their advice to the right level and in constructive tones, though. No one listens to "that's stupid and wrong" at any level, after all...

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@Ikvar: No it was not a reaction to you tagging your thread, I'm not judging that. It was more generally that I think "Here's a new picture please criticize it" is not really an option to do on every post repeatedly without sounding overly eager. So your tag is maybe the way to go :)

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My reading of the two lines of the exchange there, you didn't criticize his painting. You actually said it was good. Instead you criticized how he choose to paint it, which is a different thing.

When I read painting comments that are "I don't like your color choices" I always roll my eyes. That's not a painting critique, that's personal taste. It's not saying "your blending might be better if x."

I totally agree that people are too sensitive and that if you post your mini up you should be prepared for some negativity. That said, if you're criticism is "you did it wrong" you can't expect much of a great reception. And telling him that he painted the skin wrong without any mention of actual painting technique is not helpful.

Critique the painting, not the stylistic choices.

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... But I did not say it was wrong, I just pointed out a random fact that Wyrd had said it was actually her skin, and not cloth as most people think it is. Where in that sentence did I say it was wrong of him to paint it as cloth? O_o

 

And do you actually think it is okay to have such a strong reaction just because I pointed that out?

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I wouldn't overthink that case :) Maybe he had a bad day. Maybe you just happend to be the third person to point that out to him when he was actually very happy with his flower pattern cloth or whatever and he just snapped.

Also remember that he does not hear or see you say it, he just reads a line of text. Much of how the meaning of what we say is transported by the tone, gestures and so on. Try reading your line about the cloth in a snippy voice and you'll see. (smart-alec (?) don't know the word in english)

 

Also, sentence-wise "however" overthrows whatever you said before the "however". So probably he read: "nice cloth, however that is not what you were supposed to be painting"

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Okay first off, it's a beach blanket.  A size 2 girl does not have a size 14 back.  Paint some fun shit on that blanket and move along.

 

But to the original post.....  A Wyrd Place is a very Care Bear site.  Crissy keeps it that way because that page attracts a lot of first time players who are also first time gamers and painters.  Half the people there don't know what C & C is at all (Comment and Critique).  If people ask for C & C then give it to them in the nice, polite, constructive way you described.  If they didn't ask for C & C and you don't like their stuff scroll on past.

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