Pulses and auras, blocking and LoS

[DeleteAccount]

OK, just had a game with Sevorin where I had a very big rules cunondrum.

 

Basically, the Hungering darkness (Ht3) used the Consume Brilliance pulse, he considered that 2 illuminated behind 2 flesh constructs were not required to test because although the illuminated are in LoS of the hungering darkness, the pulse zone is broken by the flesh constructs body and the Ht of pulses and auras does not go down. I always operated on the premise that you only needed LoS and to be within range, I never noticed that the Ht is as tall as the model, so I can understand why if Nicodem is in a Ht 2 structure he affects nothing that is Ht 2 or lower with his auras (even though it sounds absurd to me...) but I just don't finish understanding how a model can break the pulse/aura section with the body even if within line of sight.

 

Basically, could I get  a rules page confirmation of what Sevorin was telling me? I checked the pulse rules but they just aren't clearing it up for me.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[rgarbonzo]

All measurements in Malifaux are made from a top down view, this is regardless of the Ht of the objects being measured to/from.

 

The Ht stat of a model does not affect whether it is within range of another model, since the measurements are done top down.

 

The same is true of auras and pulses.

 

The Ht of such effects is mentioned because some pulses/auras block LoS, in which case their Ht could prove relevant. 

 

So model still block LOS right? Using top down measurement for range is great but you still have to see that Ht 1 model behind a Ht 2 model  correct?

[Justin]

So model still block LOS right? Using top down measurement for range is great but you still have to see that Ht 1 model behind a Ht 2 model  correct?

 

Measuring and LoS are two different things.

[The Godlyness]

I have a quick question Which is not quick.

Two friendly models. One is on the ground and is ht 2. His friend is on a piece of ht 3 terrain. The lower model is generating an aura that provides soft cover. So he is effect Since they have los and he is in range.

Now an enemy model is on ht 3 terrain and shoots at the model across from him. How does ht play in this at all.

If the pulses are infinitely high how does a ht 5 cover generating do anything?

If there was a blocking aura in the above example then you could not draw los to each other.

But then a few posts later you say ht matters.

.....in which way?

[Myyrä]

From what Justin said I understood that that auras are infinitely high, except for LoS and and cover purposes. The soft cover aura essentially counts as soft cover terrain with defined Ht.

...or that's how I understood it.

Edit: I think that would actually mean that model can stand above its own soft cover aura if it's standing in Ht 6 tower or something, because all measurements are done from top down perspective.

[solkan]

I have a quick question Which is not quick.

Two friendly models. One is on the ground and is ht 2. His friend is on a piece of ht 3 terrain. The lower model is generating an aura that provides soft cover. So he is effect Since they have los and he is in range.

Now an enemy model is on ht 3 terrain and shoots at the model across from him. How does ht play in this at all.

 

Please specify the specific effect or effects that you're confused about.  Otherwise, it's entirely possible that you're getting confused by a mechanical combination that the game is deliberately avoiding using.

[Justin]

I have a quick question Which is not quick.

Two friendly models. One is on the ground and is ht 2. His friend is on a piece of ht 3 terrain. The lower model is generating an aura that provides soft cover. So he is effect Since they have los and he is in range.

Now an enemy model is on ht 3 terrain and shoots at the model across from him. How does ht play in this at all.

If the pulses are infinitely high how does a ht 5 cover generating do anything?

If there was a blocking aura in the above example then you could not draw los to each other.

But then a few posts later you say ht matters.

.....in which way?

 

LoS and measurement are determined differently.

 

Let's use models as an example, because this for some reason becomes confusing when using auras.

 

Let's say model X is on a 12' high tower (yes, you finally did it, you built the 12 foot tall piece of terrain). Model Y is Ht 2 and is within 3" of model X from a top down view, although model Y is on ground level, not on the terrain. Are model X and Y considered to be within 3" of each other for measuring range for a shooting attack? Yes, as range is measured from a top down view.

 

Does model Y block LoS from model X? No, model X is 12 feet in the air above model Y, please use the vantage point rules.

 

Auras work the same way.

 

Range =/= LoS.

 

Last post I'm making in this thread, as I think people are only likely to get more confused as they try to read more into my posts that isn't here. It's why it's a good idea for me to stay away from the rules forum (so far as posting is concerned anyway. Always lots of reading).

[MasterDisaster]

LoS and measurement are determined differently.

 

Let's use models as an example, because this for some reason becomes confusing when using auras.

 

Let's say model X is on a 12' high tower (yes, you finally did it, you built the 12 foot tall piece of terrain). Model Y is Ht 2 and is within 3" of model X from a top down view, although model Y is on ground level, not on the terrain. Are model X and Y considered to be within 3" of each other for measuring range for a shooting attack? Yes, as range is measured from a top down view.

 

Does model Y block LoS from model X? No, model X is 12 feet in the air above model Y, please use the vantage point rules.

 

Auras work the same way.

 

Range =/= LoS.

 

Last post I'm making in this thread, as I think people are only likely to get more confused as they try to read more into my posts that isn't here. It's why it's a good idea for me to stay away from the rules forum (so far as posting is concerned anyway. Always lots of reading).

 

Justin hath laid down the law! DEAL WITH IT 

[zFiend]

Justin hath laid down the law! DEAL WITH IT

But it's not the law until it's in the FAQ.

Revolution baby!

[The Godlyness]

LoS and measurement are determined differently.

 

Let's use models as an example, because this for some reason becomes confusing when using auras.

 

Let's say model X is on a 12' high tower (yes, you finally did it, you built the 12 foot tall piece of terrain). Model Y is Ht 2 and is within 3" of model X from a top down view, although model Y is on ground level, not on the terrain. Are model X and Y considered to be within 3" of each other for measuring range for a shooting attack? Yes, as range is measured from a top down view.

 

Does model Y block LoS from model X? No, model X is 12 feet in the air above model Y, please use the vantage point rules.

 

Auras work the same way.

 

Range =/= LoS.

 

Last post I'm making in this thread, as I think people are only likely to get more confused as they try to read more into my posts that isn't here. It's why it's a good idea for me to stay away from the rules forum (so far as posting is concerned anyway. Always lots of reading).

Thank you.

[DeleteAccount]

I DEMAND that black blood gets changed into "ROCKET BLOOD!!11!1!!!" (yes all the exclamation points are necessary) since by gumby does it cover ground!

 

Anyway, Aok on my side and it's how I've been playing it, so happy to not have to reeducate my herd.

[jonahmaul]

So if I've followed this thread correctly (and it's gone all over the place at times!) aura's only measure distance and effect everything within the distance is affected *unless* it is below the model (as Auras and Pulses only go up, and not down?)?

[Myyrä]

Everything within the distance is affected if it is within LoS.

[The Godlyness]

Up. down. left. right. through walls (if in los  ofc)

 

In the range of the pulse /aura . and in los of the pulse /aura   all you need and you are effected by it.

[MasterDisaster]

But it's not the law until it's in the FAQ.

Revolution baby!

 

Most of these rules are in the rulebook though.... so.... THE LAW! 

[sharpobjects]

...I already conceded that point. I was wrong. Please forgive my impotence.

 

Hell has frozen over.

 

I was playing something correctly all along and Godlyness wasn't. 

[scarlett fever]

Necessary necro. I'm writing in this thread because it's the one all other similar threads reference (being that Justin replied in it).

This came up in a game again today and it really needs an FAQ. Pretty please.

[Ludvig]

 

Everything within the distance is affected if it is within LoS.

I thought this was the conclusion that was drawn from this discussion and is supported in the rulebook.

Check range top down, check LoS as usual.

[scarlett fever]

Yes, but it hinges on this answer from Justin deep in this thread. 

I was in a tournament yesterday and couldn't convince anyone that this is how it's played (including TO), because it's equally easy to read the rules as defining a cylinder. 

Of course I played to the cylinder rules instead but this is not an ideal situation. 

[solkan]

 

Yes, but it hinges on this answer from Justin deep in this thread. 

I was in a tournament yesterday and couldn't convince anyone that this is how it's played (including TO), because it's equally easy to read the rules as defining a cylinder. 

Of course I played to the cylinder rules instead but this is not an ideal situation. 

The really bizarre thing is that every game that I've played that has used cylinders for volumes has been explicit about it and included illustrated diagrams.

So it really baffles me when people claim that the Malifaux rules use cylinders for auras and pulses.  Especially when I've sat down and counted out the references to Ht and they're all either:

1.  Defining that something has a Ht characteristic

2.  Dealing with line of sight (8 or so references)

3.  Falling (3 references)

4.  Engagement and Elevation (1 reference)

So if you're going to write "it's equally easy to read the rules as defining a cylinder", please explain to me how it's doing that.  Where and how are the rules defining that cylinder?

 

[scarlett fever]

 

 

 

The really bizarre thing is that every game that I've played that has used cylinders for volumes has been explicit about it and included illustrated diagrams.

So it really baffles me when people claim that the Malifaux rules use cylinders for auras and pulses.  Especially when I've sat down and counted out the references to Ht and they're all either:

1.  Defining that something has a Ht characteristic

2.  Dealing with line of sight (8 or so references)

3.  Falling (3 references)

4.  Engagement and Elevation (1 reference)

So if you're going to write "it's equally easy to read the rules as defining a cylinder", please explain to me how it's doing that.  Where and how are the rules defining that cylinder?

 

I'm not intending to rehash the arguement at all and there are a number of eloquent positions for the treatment of the rules as cylinders (such as the one below) at the beginning of the thread.

I fully realise that height is an abstract characteristic. It's just difficult and takes time to argue your position if there is nothing in the FAQ to back it up. I've come across this multiple times and having to dredge up this thread to prove it is not ideal, that's all. In my experience it can go either way, as can be shown by the many eloquent and well-versed people disagreeing at the start of the thread.

Obviously you haven't had this issue traveling between gaming groups, which is fine also.

 

We have a radius of a value from the model. We have a height. Surely by default that is a cylinder. All the models we use are a cylinder for Rules purposes.

[Myyrä]

 

Where and how are the rules defining that cylinder?

Models and auras are effectively cylinders when you are trying to draw LoS through them from a vantage point. That's pretty much the only situation though.

[Kadeton]

I'm going to lock the thread - I think the answer to the question is well established by Justin's responses, so there's no need for further discussion. I agree that it would be appropriate to add to the FAQ, but further posts in the thread won't influence whether that happens. Thanks!