Pulses and auras, blocking and LoS

[DeleteAccount]

OK, just had a game with Sevorin where I had a very big rules cunondrum.

 

Basically, the Hungering darkness (Ht3) used the Consume Brilliance pulse, he considered that 2 illuminated behind 2 flesh constructs were not required to test because although the illuminated are in LoS of the hungering darkness, the pulse zone is broken by the flesh constructs body and the Ht of pulses and auras does not go down. I always operated on the premise that you only needed LoS and to be within range, I never noticed that the Ht is as tall as the model, so I can understand why if Nicodem is in a Ht 2 structure he affects nothing that is Ht 2 or lower with his auras (even though it sounds absurd to me...) but I just don't finish understanding how a model can break the pulse/aura section with the body even if within line of sight.

 

Basically, could I get  a rules page confirmation of what Sevorin was telling me? I checked the pulse rules but they just aren't clearing it up for me.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[joediamond]

I'm suggesting that Ht does not describe the length of a cylinder, it is not used like that anywhere else in the rules. Sure, I can see why someone would like to think of auras as finite cylinders, but I don't think the rules support it.

• "An aura is centered on a model and radiates out in all directions from the edge of the model's base." (Manual pg 58)
• "By default, all objects within the aura's area, including the model it is centered on, are affected by the aura..."  (Manual pg 58)
• "An aura has the same Ht as the model it comes from, unless specified otherwise." (Manual pg 58)
• "Ht is used for drawing LOS" (Manual pg 9)

Pg 59 has similar wording for pulses for the first three points, except pulses do not affect the source model.  Ht the stat is not to be confused with "height," the vertical dimension.

 

Auras/pulses affect an area (2D), not a volume (3D), and go out in all directions from the edge of the model's base.  If we are going to talk geometry, an aura appears to be a flat circle, NOT a cylinder.

 

Malifaux in general seems to stick to 2D, with some exceptions for 3D interactions.  I specifically cannot find anything that says a model is anything but a flat base.  All checks are done from base edge to base edge.  The vertical portion of a model doesn't appear to exist in the rules at all.

 

Basically, two simple steps to auras and pulses (similar to many abilities/actions): 1) You check the range as normal using the range specified by the aura/pulse, then 2) check LOS (taking the Ht stat of the aura/pulse into consideration), excluding any models that are out of LOS from the aura/pulse effects.

[The Godlyness]

Huggy being ht 3 his pulse is ht 3. Fleshies are only ht 2. As are illuminated (not that, that matters) So to be affected by a pulse you be in range and los of the model pulsing. Since Huggy can see over the fleshies and can draw los to the illuminated they are effected.

If Huggy was ht 2 the fleshies would block los so the illuminated would not be effected.

Yes pulses and auras don't go down so if Huggy was standing on ht2 or greater terrain Then neither fleshie nor illuminated would be effected.

The main page you want would be page 40 for los.

Since it is by 3 pulse anything ht2 and lower in range would be effected.

Big things see things.

Hope this helps.

[Sevorin]

So the pulse works like the top pic, not the bottom pic? I always figured you had 2 requirements to make to be in a pulse or aura, LoS, and within the effect.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i285/Mad_Zerker/Pulses-1.png

[The Godlyness]

Range and los. Correct. And since ht3 things see over ht2 things all ht2 and ht1 things in range are effected.

[Sevorin]

Everything should just have been top down like measurement to avoid this stuff >_>

[joediamond]

Yes pulses and auras don't go down so if Huggy was standing on ht2 or greater terrain Then neither fleshie nor illuminated would be effected.

 

 

 

the Ht of pulses and auras does not go down. I always operated on the premise that you only needed LoS and to be within range, I never noticed that the Ht is as tall as the model, so I can understand why if Nicodem is in a Ht 2 structure he affects nothing that is Ht 2 or lower with his auras 

 

Can someone please tell me where this notion of 3D auras/pulses is from?  I know in 1.5 Auras/Pulses were more of an "infinite cylinder" sort of deal, but as far as I can tell from the rules manual, you only need to be within range and LOS of the source.  Page 14 of the Rules Manual says all measurements are done from a top down perspective, so the range part is pretty obvious from what I can tell.  Auras/Pulses do have a Ht stat (usually equal to the source's Ht), but Ht, as far as I can tell, is almost exclusively used for LOS (interactions like Devour and Grab and Drop being examples of exceptions).

 

The Ht stat doesn't even have a set dimension, as far as I can tell.  You assign terrain a Ht value based on it's height in inches (RM Pg 73), and it is assumed to correlate to inches when looking at Vantage Point terrain (RM pg 42), but the Ht stat itself appears to be dimensionless, like Df or Wp.  All that is said about the stat is: "The model's relative height in the game.  Ht is used when drawing LOS." (RM pg 9).

 

Auras/Pulses seem to just require range and LOS (RM pg 58/59).  Am I missing something here?  Rules/FAQ/Errata references would be helpful.  I've been looking through them, but I can't see what you are referring to when you say "auras and pulses don't go down."  And if they don't in fact go down, where does it say they go up?

[The Godlyness]

It goes up to the models ht.

Sadly I do mean sadly. No where do the rules say pulses or aura extend down. Only up and out to its range.

There is no rule thst says auras go down. And since malifaux is a permissive rules set we are told what we can do.

I don't agree with it. But is what it is.

If you want rules on something thst does go down look to blasts rules.

[Ausplosions]

They are only equal to the model's Ht, so this means a model on terrain higher will not be effected.

[Malsqueek]

They are only equal to the model's Ht, so this means a model on terrain higher will not be effected.

 

That is not entirely accurate.

 

A pulse/aura emanated from a Ht3 model, which is within range and LoS of a model of any height on terrain of Ht 2 or less would be effected by the ability, as a portion of the model would be contained within the Ht3 cylinder of goodness/badness.

[The Godlyness]

I think you did not read Ausplosions post completely. Or are reading it out of context.

If a model is on terrain greater than or equal to the pulsing models ht it is unaffected.

[Bengt]

There is no rule thst says auras go down. And since malifaux is a permissive rules set we are told what we can do.

I don't agree with it. But is what it is.

If you want rules on something thst does go down look to blasts rules.

There doesn't need to be a rule for auras to go down, the default measuring rules are 2D, there is no up or down axis. Unless a rule specifically states an up/down limitation you will only measure top down and disregard differences in elevation.

 

Blast sets both an up and down limitation "...unless the model is more than 3" above or below the blast's target." p50. Auras only set an up limitation by giving Auras Ht.

[Ausplosions]

I think you did not read Ausplosions post completely. Or are reading it out of context.

If a model is on terrain greater than or equal to the pulsing models ht it is unaffected.

Thank you.

[Adran]

There doesn't need to be a rule for auras to go down, the default measuring rules are 2D, there is no up or down axis. Unless a rule specifically states an up/down limitation you will only measure top down and disregard differences in elevation.

 

Blast sets both an up and down limitation "...unless the model is more than 3" above or below the blast's target." p50. Auras only set an up limitation by giving Auras Ht.

Saying a aura is the same height as the model does set both a top and bottom to the Aura. It is a cylinder that sits in the same height plane as the model

A side on view

------------

aaamaaa

aaamaaa

aaamaaa

-----T-----

GGGGGGG

- =no aura

A =Aura

T= terrain

M=model

G= Table top

[Bengt]

Saying a aura is the same height as the model does set both a top and bottom to the Aura. It is a cylinder that sits in the same height plane as the model

 

Do you have rules reference that says Ht works anything like that?

[Math Mathonwy]

Do you have rules reference that says Ht works anything like that?

Are you suggesting that it should work like this:

------------

aaaMaaa

aaaMaaa

aaaMaaa

aaaTaaa

GGGGGGG

- =no aura

A =Aura

T= terrain

M=model

G= Table top

Then the aura would be ht 4.

[Bengt]

Then the aura would be ht 4.

I'm suggesting that Ht does not describe the length of a cylinder, it is not used like that anywhere else in the rules. Sure, I can see why someone would like to think of auras as finite cylinders, but I don't think the rules support it.

[Math Mathonwy]

I'm suggesting that Ht does not describe the length of a cylinder, it is not used like that anywhere else in the rules. Sure, I can see why someone would like to think of auras as finite cylinders, but I don't think the rules support it.

I don't understand - what does it describe if not the length (height) of the cylinder?

In a practical example, a model standing on top of Ht 1 terrain creates an Aura. Does it hit the Ht 1 Gremlin that is on ground level?

[Soundwave]

In a practical example, a model standing on top of Ht 1 terrain creates an Aura. Does it hit the Ht 1 Gremlin that is on ground level?

 

This came up our last game as well, and I'm very interested as well.

 

We flipped for it.

[Adran]

We have a radius of a value from the model. We have a height. Surely by default that is a cylinder. All the models we use are a cylinder for Rules purposes.

[The Godlyness]

I don't understand - what does it describe if not the length (height) of the cylinder?In a practical example, a model standing on top of Ht 1 terrain creates an Aura. Does it hit the Ht 1 Gremlin that is on ground level?

Oh oh pick me pick me. I know know.

No it does not. It goes above the models head.

Look at the tiny dreamer. His pitiful pleasant dreams wants in an open field since any ht of blocking terrain makes things not be in his Aura lol. (If the friendly is behind or on top of the terrain. )

[The Godlyness]

So just to be perfectly clear. An enemy model on a ht 10 (yes 10) tower on the very edge of the lip of the tower. would be affected by a pulse or aura from ground level.

Wow. I don't think I have seen a better example of absurdity in a long time.

[Myyrä]

Look at the tiny dreamer. His pitiful pleasant dreams wants in an open field since any ht of blocking terrain makes things not be in his Aura lol. (If the friendly is behind or on top of the terrain. )

Almost correct. Auras go through terrain just fine if the two models have LoS to each other. Thus Ht 1 terrain doesn't block Dreamer's aura except for other Ht 1 models.

[The Godlyness]

The aura is not tall enough to go over wall. So a ht 2 model behind a ht 1 wall is not in the aura to be affected.

Would seem quite weird for a model standing on a ht 1 wall being unaffected. But the model behind the wall is.

[Math Mathonwy]

The aura is not tall enough to go over wall. So a ht 2 model behind a ht 1 wall is not in the aura to be affected.

Would seem quite weird for a model standing on a ht 1 wall being unaffected. But the model behind the wall is.

Do you have some sort of reference to back up your interpretations? Joediamond quoted the rulebook and his way, indeed, has been how I've been playing it and how I have been explaining it to new players. The Ht of the Aura as simply referring to it's LOS. In other words, an Aura works exactly the same as any other measurement in the game: range and LOS. Makes sense, right? If not, could you cite something to the contrary?

[The Godlyness]

Page 60 might help you understand what ht is besides just drawing los. If a piece of terrain is declared ht2 then that means it is 2" tall. So if a model is ht 2 then his Aura pulse is ht 2. Which means it only extends up 2" anything standing on a piece of ht 2 terrain or greater is OUT of range. Therefore unaffected.