Shot in the Rear...NPE? Whack with a Cuddle bat?

[DeleteAccount]

With Mechanical Rider there were two view points: that it should be nεrfed and that it is fine. The former prevailed (and I was on that side, though I think that it is still at the top end of the power curve) but the latter opinion was valid as well.

I think that you are simply talking past one another a bit here. To me it seems that Baalbamoth is simply saying that he doesn't think that the Sow is over the top. That it is comparable to other powerful stuff that there is. Which is a valid opinion, though, naturally, disagreeing with it is valid as well.

And I wish to stress that I really, really respect your opinions (you are, in fact, one of the posters whose posts I always pay keen attention to) so I wish to in no way say that your posts aren't welcome or anything. Just that I feel that you are talking a bit past each other.

Hope I'm making sense

Well, the Mech rider is just a testament to why discussing this things is relevant instead of keeping quiet, same applies to Lynch and his Woke up with a Hand and I've made my own claims about the Abra Cadaver trigger which I feel gives too much bang for your buck, though I seem to be alone on that front.

 

As for the discussion at hand, it has nothing to do with the Sow, she is certainly a good model and summoning 2 piglets on it's death is an awesome way to get a good bang for your buck, but she is as glass cannon as you can get. I never considered the Sow too good, she is a budget beater that pays for it with a lowish Ml stat and no staying alive rules outside of it's healing trigger and the horror duel, which is always nice, but won't save it from the big boys.

 

The Ulix discussion I'd say is mostly based around Shot in the Rear, since it can also be mayhem with a Warpig for example and Corn Husks which has made it into the discussion too. Both can be tremendously powerful, but aren't autoplay either, so they are kind of on the fringe of "maybe too good?". I can't really comment since I've only played against Ulix once, there was no bow, I learned the mean way that hanged destroy the summoning engine and he was flipping horribly from turn 2 onward, but I do know the current top player is using Ulix and winning consistently and that very good players that have faced him have commented on how distressing those 2 abilities are.

 

Is it distressing from a "you have to get used to it, but once that is done you can coast through it" way? Or is it a constant playing to avoid those two situations, no idea, need more intel, but from what I'm hearing he has also generated his own brand of chaos in the UK along with Wong and just from a theory perspective, he does seem a top tier master to me. Again, there has to be someone on the top, so that's not a problem, the problem is maybe he is too much on the top or not which is what we are discussing.

[Baalbamoth]

meh, "current top player" out of how many around the world, and by current do you mean last weekend? does it change that fast? 

 

"tremendously powerful" vs "maybe too powerful" vs completely boring and unexceptionally average when you consider every master has abilities that will range from "maybe" to "tremendously" powerful entirely depending on circumstances and opponents skill levels. 

 

I want masters who excel in specific areas, and have big weaknesses in others, that makes them interesting to me. what happens to ulix if you kill off all his piggys? ans: he gets a single walk and does crappy damage, basically about as worthless as a 4 pt peon model.

 

I don't want all masters to have entirely balanced abilities so much so that the only difference is a special effect description. If an ability is slightly unbalanced either to the master's benefit or hindrance, that's totally fine with me. lets review that at the M3e betas if we think things need adjustment.

 

If a master is completely overpowered or there's some crazy loophole that makes a master unbeatable my question would be why didn't beta testing discover the flaw? likely because it isn't a flaw or unbalancing its just that master's nifty (completely able to be countered) trick.  

[Fetid Strumpet]

Your argument for why he's balanced is that if you kill his entire crew he's not that good? I'm not getting involved in the argument at large, but that reasoning for balance needs some work.

[Baalbamoth]

your assuming his entire crew is pigs, if he goes for pigapult it wont be, most people like taking sammy, trixy, or merris with him as well, if he adds lenny to give gracey rams, thats a whole heck of a lot of points not tied up in pigs, a crew like that you only need to kill sow or gracey and general. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

So you're now saying if he builds a crew that's really easy to counter and then you counter it he's easy to defeat?

Seriously I'm not commenting one way or the other on the balance issues, just your argument for it. That's like me saying Seamus is really easy to kill if you get rid of everything in the crew that tosses out wp duels, and people like bringing Izamu, Toshiro, and punk zombies with him. That's a lot of points tied up in things that don't cause wp duels, a crew like that you just need to kill the two belles or nurses in general.

Which well may be technically true, isn't a real argument for balance because the crew wasnt built to take advantage of the master's strengths.

Its like Saying Kaeris isn't really that hard to deal with if she happens to bring a crew that doesn't hand out or synergize with burning, or that Colette isn't hard to deal with if she doesn't bring a crew to manipulate and drop masses of scheme markers.

Balance comes from what the optimized list builds are, not a collection of models that people like to take.

Again I'm not trying to say Ulix is, or is not overpowered, just that your argument that he is balanced because if you kill all his pigs he becomes weak is not a strong argument in favor of your position at all.

That could be valid if he could only bring 1 or two of those models ever, but he doesn't have to do that.

[Math Mathonwy]

Well, the Mech rider is just a testament to why discussing this things is relevant instead of keeping quiet, same applies to Lynch and his Woke up with a Hand and I've made my own claims about the Abra Cadaver trigger which I feel gives too much bang for your buck, though I seem to be alone on that front.

I really hope I didn't give the impression that I thought that this conversation shouldn't be had! I think that, all in all, there is way too little talk of balance on these forums and I feel that it is an extremely important topic.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Ulix using Hunting Bow to give Shot in the Rear to The Sow is incredibly potent. I used this combination in a Vassal game Thursday night, and killed a bunch of fully-healed models in a single activation. (two Molemen and a Gunsmith, to be precise.) You can pretty much keep killing until you reach a Hard to Kill model.

(I used it slightly wrong in the game, because I'd forgotten that you need to charge the nearest model, but I'm pretty sure that with the flexibility of where exactly you Charge I'd have gotten the exact same results by controlling the angle of Charge.)

Honestly, I would still use this combination happily even if Shot In The Rear killed the target pig at the end of the activation. And I'd consider that a little more balanced.

If it doesn't change, I'll certainly keep using this trick and getting better at understanding it.

[rgarbonzo]

All it takes is for the Sow to miss an attack, or possibly attack a Terrifying model to end the rampage of destruction.

[Malal]

All it takes is for the Sow to miss an attack, or possibly attack a Terrifying model to end the rampage of destruction.

 

Or Manipulative, or a Defensive trigger

[Hateful Darkblack]

Good point!

I'll keep an eye out.

[Iron Heel]

When I started this post, I hoped that we'd see a wider assortment of folks with actual experiences.  Hopefully, this will expand given a little time...and these players will add their thoughts to this thread.

 

Life conspires to keep me off the tabletop at the moment, but when I get a little freedom, I'll have some Ulix booty-shoot'n to report on here too.

 

I've not gotten a huge amount of Malifaux games under my belt, but I've played many other systems and rulesets.  Sometimes a model/rule looks uber on paper but translates more reasonably onto the table...I am not dead set on a n3rf being needed, but anytime a see a "you keep it going until you fail" rule in a game where activations and actions are king, it gives me great pause.

[Malal]

Fair point, interestingly there are other infinite (or as many times as you flip/stone a suit) triggers out there, Francois and Silurids spring to mind. Iirc, eyebrows were raised in some cases but nothing yet has proven to be game changing

[zFiend]

Fair point, interestingly there are other infinite (or as many times as you flip/stone a suit) triggers out there, Francois and Silurids spring to mind. Iirc, eyebrows were raised in some cases but nothing yet has proven to be game changing

 

Santiago and the Young Nephilim as well I think?

[Bodiless]

 

If a master is completely overpowered or there's some crazy loophole that makes a master unbeatable my question would be why didn't beta testing discover the flaw? likely because it isn't a flaw or unbalancing its just that master's nifty (completely able to be countered) trick.  

 

Beta is clearly not infallible, as the various erratas since 2e was released show. The fact that there have been so few of them is a testament to how well the beta testing did perform at catching problematic combinations, but it is a matter of record that some issues remained. I have no opinion if this particular case is one of those issues - just pointing out that they do exist.

[The Godlyness]

Fair point, interestingly there are other infinite (or as many times as you flip/stone a suit) triggers out there, Francois and Silurids spring to mind. Iirc, eyebrows were raised in some cases but nothing yet has proven to be game changing

True but they need a suit to continue. With shot in the rear just needs to kill the model no suits required.

[Bengt]

Fair point, interestingly there are other infinite (or as many times as you flip/stone a suit) triggers out there, Francois and Silurids spring to mind. Iirc, eyebrows were raised in some cases but nothing yet has proven to be game changing

Silurid and Santiago is against the same target. Francois takes damage from the trigger. So neither is infinite, though Francois has a fair amount of health to go through.

 

Mature Nephilim can go on until he runs out of targets though by hitting normal without trigger on first attack and then using the no damage and new charge trigger on the second. Takes a suit though, and being able to push the target away without obstructions each time.

[dgraz]

I'm certain if Marcus had something that allowed the Cerberus to get a free charge after it killed something people would have been screaming OP.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I'm certain if Marcus had something that allowed the Cerberus to get a free charge after it killed something people would have been screaming OP.

 

Isn't that exactly what Alpha does?

 

I guess it's not as free.

[dgraz]

 

Isn't that exactly what Alpha does?

 

I guess it's not as free.

 

Not even close to the same.

[hypoking]

Apples and oranges. Can't get Ramos to blow up half his toys with Shot.

[dgraz]

Apples and oranges. Can't get Ramos to blow up half his toys with Shot.

Straw man......that's ONE model. The shot works on many more.

[hypoking]

My point was they're entirely different bags of tricks. Thought I was agreeing with you.

[dgraz]

My point was they're entirely different bags of tricks. Thought I was agreeing with you.

Sorry. I thought you were implying that Alpha was better in that regard. It's really good, but I don't think it's as good as the Shot....and he can only Alpha once a turn, giving up most of his Activation to do it (and requires quite a bit more set-up and resources to do on an enemy).....Shot could be three times and is a little easier to get off (a little shorter range though). Alpha spends 2 AP to basically give 2 AP....Shot spends 1 AP to give a 2 AP Charge with a built in 'Trigger' to keep going. Yeah, Alpha isn't even close for shear damage potential.

[Mason]

Except that Alpha also gives him the option of taking control of enemy models, which can potentially skew things back in favor of Alpha.

[dgraz]

Take control of one enemy model vs kill multiple enemy models........idk.

 

I don't know......I have no Ulix experience. I have plenty of Marcus experience....and I KNOW that if I could let a Cerberus continually charge for 1 AP people would cry foul. (Basing using the Shot on The Sow......which is pretty similar on the attack.)