Burning condition

[xx7slayer7xx]

can someone explain to me how the burning condition works please? if my teddy say has 3 burning condition, at the end of the turn does he suffer 3 damage or is it just 1? also tried to play v sonnia again, didnt have much luck, even though teddy was behind cover, a building of height 4 was covering and yet sonnia managed to kill him even though he was behind the building just because he had a burning condition....sigh....

[Uktena]

You take the full count of burning damage at end of turn and the condition ends. So if you're burning +12, get ready to stop drop and roll. Which, by the way, you can do. One interact action can lower the condition by one.

[J_D]

You take the full count of burning damage at end of turn and the condition ends. So if you're burning +12, get ready to stop drop and roll. Which, by the way, you can do. One interact action can lower the condition by one.

 

Let's be honest, if you are Burning +12 you are in for a world of hurt 

[Uktena]

Let's be honest, if you are Burning +12 you are in for a world of hurt 

 

Unless you're playing Kaeris, in which case you get your best crazy eyes going.  That interact action I mentioned btw can be performed by another friendly model too.  So in the case of the Burning +12 Bodyguard model, your whole crew can grab the blankets and pat them out.  At least how I remember it.  Can't seem to find that book anywhere.....

[AverageBoss]

Let's be honest, if you are Burning +12 you are in for a world of hurt 

Shenlong likes him some Burning+12. Lightning Kick all day everyday.

[jonahmaul]

Burning is horrible and in mine and a lot of friends view too OP.  One of our friends run Kaeris and the amount of fire her crew can put out with her, Gunsmiths, Rail Golem, Fire Gamin etc. is disgusting.  Against low Df stuff like Ice Golems and Teddy it's really horrible as even the Gamin which are cheap minions give out Burning +2.  I think it should work more like poison where you just get 1 damage at the end of the turn but then it does have the advantage over poison of being able to lower it with interact actions.

[MasterDisaster]

Burning is horrible and in mine and a lot of friends view too OP.  One of our friends run Kaeris and the amount of fire her crew can put out with her, Gunsmiths, Rail Golem, Fire Gamin etc. is disgusting.  Against low Df stuff like Ice Golems and Teddy it's really horrible as even the Gamin which are cheap minions give out Burning +2.  I think it should work more like poison where you just get 1 damage at the end of the turn but then it does have the advantage over poison of being able to lower it with interact actions.

 

It's not really that OP. If you suspect it's coming then take a model with Condition Removal. You can also remove it by interacting with the burning model. It's damage is also reduced by armour, stopped by HtK and can be prevented with SS use. Yeah sometimes models such as Kaeris and the Firestarter can combine their efforts and stack up Burning +12 on a model but that's a Master and Henchman using all their AP on killing a model instead of supporting their crew or achieving VP. You may come back to me and say well I play a Faction who lack lots of Condition Removal. To that I say Johan! He's a Merc and even at 7ss with the merc tax he's always a worthy investment. The Relic Hammer alone makes him justifiable to me, he also has Flurry, 8 wounds and HtK. I rarely run any crew without some form of Condition Removal because many conditions can and will ruin your day if left unchecked. Additionally because it's resolved at the end of the turn the burning model can still take it's activation and contribute to the schemes or strategy at hand.

 

If Johan doesn't do it for you then it really depends on the faction you play. Most have some form of condition removal. For instance

 

Guild - Johan & Witchling Stalkers (Pure Gold!)

Ressers - Johan, Chiaki the Niece & Void Wretches if Tara is playing Resser

Arcanists - Johan who works wonders with MS&U crews but is also a gem in any crew, maybe others but I don't play a lot of Arcanists. 

Neverborn - Johan and maybe others (don't play them very much)

Outcasts - Johan, Steam Trunk (Von Schill Only but can remove Poison and Burning) & Void Wretches

Ten Thunders - Johan, Chiaki the Niece and Monks of the Low River

Gremlins - Johan & maybe others. Don't play them at all.

 

As you can see there's a bit of a reoccurring theme there. But when it comes down to it burning isn't very common and even Kaeris' sometimes seemingly sickening inferno is not even remotely OP when you consider the disgusting amount on poison and expunge a McMourning crew can put out. Especially when you consider that for 22ss you can start the game with 20 poison already on the board (2x Flesh Constructs and 2x Autopsies). This can then be increased to even more stupid heights when you also consider the inclusion of Nurses who can jack up Fleshies or Autopsies for another Poison +8 each activation and the Horrific Odor ability from the Zombie Chihuahua further increasing this. Having this obscene amount of poison thrown around with accomplice on Seb and McMourning teamed up alongside the Chihuahua and Rafkin can make Burning look actually quite pleasant. 

[Stupid Bob]

FWIW Dreamer can remove Conditions from Nightmares & Minions...

[asrian]

FWIW Dreamer can remove Conditions from Nightmares & Minions...

Barring Dreamer, and Collodi (if he uses an Arcane Effigy from Arcanist in his crew) the only condition removal that I can think of for Neverborn as a whole is Johan. It's one of our weaknesses really as a faction. 

[jonahmaul]

I know there is plenty of condition removal but imo having something that seems as OP as burning and just saying 'take condition removal' just underlines that it is a problem.  And it is rare that you can take enough condition removal to get rid of the amount of fire that dedicated crews such as Kaeris can pump out.

[Bengt]

Kaeris and Firestarter hand out 1 + 1 per  burning for 1 AP. They have a free  so 2-4 burning per AP. Compare this to what some other Masters and Henchmen can put out with their attacks I don't see how burning is OP. There are some benefits over normal attacks, duel difference is unimportant, you can stack it to only let armour work once, Shovel Faster! and probably some other things. But there are also detriments, condition removal, interacts, and the model will still its activation this turn.

[Shadowfane]

I know there is plenty of condition removal but imo having something that seems as OP as burning and just saying 'take condition removal' just underlines that it is a problem.  And it is rare that you can take enough condition removal to get rid of the amount of fire that dedicated crews such as Kaeris can pump out.

 

Just a quick note on this - whilst the interact action to put out burning only removes one of the tokens, condition removal such as Johan's Rebel Yell removes the entire condition - just making sure that's understood, since it isn't clear from the quoted post.

[MasterDisaster]

I know there is plenty of condition removal but imo having something that seems as OP as burning and just saying 'take condition removal' just underlines that it is a problem.  And it is rare that you can take enough condition removal to get rid of the amount of fire that dedicated crews such as Kaeris can pump out.

 

 

That seems like a very narrow view on condition removal. It's an incredibly important part of the game. Almost every crew in the game uses conditions to either buff themselves or debuff the enemy. I can't think of a single game where I didn't take some form of condition removal and wished I had it available to me.  It's true that in most cases (Guild Excluded here) that you can't remove ALL the Burning but then if you could that would utterly cripple Kaeris. You have to prioritize your targets and rahter than worry about your crew dying focus on what they can achieve before they meet a fiery end. 

 

I know where you are coming from though it canbe frustrating at times but there isn't really much of an argument to saying Kaeris is OP because her crew throws out loads of burning. It's basically all she does. A lot of her support relies on burning and even though she can throw out a metric tonne of burning that doesn't guarantee it's game over. I've been curb stomped by many crews in the past when playing my Kaeris crew. Ressers and Nico in particular give me a lot of grief and cause loads of problems for me because no matter how many things I incinerate he just brings them back or heals them. It's not OP otherwise Justin and the Wyrd guys wouldn't have left it the way it is. It's just a speed bump in the road you need to overcome. I'm STILL having issues with various crews and the only way to overcome those difficulties is to play them and try to find a way to counter or overcome the problems you are facing. 

 

Which crews are you playing that struggle with burning the most? Is it just Kaeris in particular or are others such as Shenlong or Sonnia also giving you a hard time? I also revert back to my earlier comment. Go against a full poison bomb McMourning crew and you will realize burning 'aint no thang! Perhaps if you give us an idea of what you are playing with we can offer some advise on how to deal with the particular issues at hand?

[Ryoken]

Another thing to consider for Conditions, especially "Burning" is the fact that it does not contribute to Victory Points.  This is noted as the second question under "Core Rules" in the FAQ.  That means that if your opponent kills an important model for a Strategy or Scheme due to the Burning Condition, they get nothing.  This alone helps to keep Burning from being OP.  It might be tough to deal with, but not impossible.  

[Amdor]

Unless they have The Firestarter screaming "I did it!"

[MasterDisaster]

Unless they have The Firestarter screaming "I did it!"

 

I love that ability! It's the one way around Ryoken's point however even this isn't fool proof. The Firestarter isn't know for being tanky and it's only 6" for "I Did It!" meaning he is often in range of charges or ranged attacks when killing in this way.

[Makrar]

As a predominantly Sonnia player, i can honestly say that ive never felt Burning to be overpowered (nor has any of my opponents). If there is a problem (and I'm not convinced there is due to the amount of AP needed to do the hypothetical situations stated in this thread) then its a Kaeris problem and not specifically burning.

 

here are some of the downsides to burning compared to normal damage.

 

Kills caused by the Burning condition do count as being caused by a model (Firestarter mitigates this a lot but this is still huge in some strats/schemes)

Anyone can lower burning with an interact

You get to activate normally while you are burning

Some models are immune to Burning full stop!

 

Obviously to make up for this models that are based around burning usually get bonuses against Burning models but i think in the end  the bonuses roughly balances with the above downsides.

 

The damage inflicted is not really that different to just straight up damage flips imo.

[jonahmaul]

Thanks for all the discussion folks.  I'm fairly new to Malifaux (or at least I played a little of 1.5 then stopped and returned with M2E) and I think a big part of the problem may be that the Kaeris player in our group almost always plays Kaeris whereas myself and quite a few others like to flit between crews.  As a result the Kaeris player knows all his crews tricks inside out and has become a very good player.  Just the way burning can stack so easily seems bloody horrible, especially when the whole crew is set up that way.  Fire Gamin being able to give out +2 means their damage spread becomes very nasty.  It just seems you have to spend too much of your attention avoiding or removing burning because of how nasty it gets when it stacks.

[Fetid Strumpet]

In general, I find the ability to remove burning through an interact is a trap. It is almost NEVER a good idea to spend ap to remove 1 burning. Last edition burning worked in such that at the end of a turn anyone with burning would take 1 dmg and remove all burning, or take slow and remove all burning. I never saw anyone take slow unless tht 1 point of dmg would kill them. So doing it in this edition, again unless it kills you, is just as bad.

The thing you need to think of burning as is flat dmg. If a model has a 2/3/4 dmg track and evey hit they give burning +1, really they have a dmg track of 3/4/5. Its slightly less good then flat dmg as if the extra dmg would have killed the targeted model it won't do so until the end of the turn, but also unlike flat dmg it applies a condition that other models can key off of, so for me its a wash and is as good as just flat dmg.

If you think burning is OP, and ill hold my own opinion in check, look at the model and just read it as if it was a flat dmg increase. I forget kaeris' actual track, but if it was 1/1/3 and gave burning for each tome, with one baked in that means she has a track of 2/2/4 with critical strike.

[Therril_83]

In general, I find the ability to remove burning through an interact is a trap. It is almost NEVER a good idea to spend ap to remove 1 burning.

I would tend to agree with you, but to point out there are times when it's useful. Say you play vs a model that gains a substantial bonus when attacking a model with burning, for example Sonnia. The Sonnia-player puts 1 burning on one of your models, which is in blocked LOS from Sonnia herself. Spending 1AP to remove that burning can then save your model from being reduced to a pile of ashes in Sonnias activation. 

 

So I just wanted to point out that although it is not a generally useful way to spend 1AP, there are absolutely situations where it's worthwile. In the above situation, it's to hinder an opponent to take advantage of the condition itself, but it could also be that you want to drop the burning down so that your model doesn't die but lives with 1Wd remaining, so that it can do something really good the next turn. 

 

 

 

Also, regarding burning being OP. I definetly do not think it is, most of the time if a model hands out burning, it's not doing as much damage as a roughly equivalent model without burning does. There are some models that still does a fair amount of damage and still hand out burning (Witchling Stalkers are a prime example. Sonnia does aswell, but for her to give burning she requires a trigger so I don't really think it applies), but mostly it's a tradeoff. Samael can with an upgrade hand out burning +4 which may sound like alot, but then he's an 11ss henchman, and most models of that cost can hand out similar amounts of damage per Ap. I would say the same applies for Kaeris and her henchman. Dealing out 2-4 burning in one AP isn't anymore powerful than dealing out 2-4 damage, in fact, in most cases I would say it's less powerful because the damage doesn't happen until end of turn.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Which is why I said Almost never.

[Uktena]

Barring Dreamer, and Collodi (if he uses an Arcane Effigy from Arcanist in his crew) the only condition removal that I can think of for Neverborn as a whole is Johan. It's one of our weaknesses really as a faction.

Don't tell them that.

[Bengt]

If you think burning is OP, and ill hold my own opinion in check, look at the model and just read it as if it was a flat dmg increase. I forget kaeris' actual track, but if it was 1/1/3 and gave burning for each tome, with one baked in that means she has a track of 2/2/4 with critical strike.

The attack in question (Flaming Halo) doesn't have a damage track, it gives burning +1 base and has a trigger that gives 1 more per  (with one  in the Ca). She has another attack (Immolate) that is 2/3/5 with no burning. So it seems to me like you will mainly use Flaming Halo to set things on fire (because really, things should be on fire!) and Immolate to kill things.