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Dreamer Summoning, Is It Too Good?


E.T.A. Hoffman

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Hello all! Welcome to another "Is It Broken" thread. Please take a moment to expire any obligitory flame before entering this discussion.

 

Let me preface by saying that all observations about the Dreamer are drawn from my experiences with and against him for my local meta. So please, when we discuss this topic try to stick to actual experiences you've had. Just because a person has read over a Master and his crew a few doesnt times does not a expert make! :D Cheers and Thank You!

 

So now that the legal department is satisfied, let's being. I follow the Dreamer pretty heavily in the beta and can even point out a few contributions to his play style that I know I helped influence. That being said, we've had many months to really see how the dust settles. I by no means think the Dreamer is OP, but I think he does breach that upper bracket of power. In my area, I have won two or three (I can't hoenstly remember) local tournaments with the boy. I'm not going to try and remember how many pick up games I've won. This is not bragging, just facts that I think support my claim that the Dreamer is perhaps a wee bit too effective at summoning. And let's not think that the players at my local tournys are scrubs, a few of them have won at Adepticon and done pretty well at Gencon. But, they would have to chime in and report on the numbers, I simply dont' recall.

 

Soooooo.... all that being said. What I've noticed with Dreamer is the mechanism of his models coming in with 1 wound really don't offset their ease of summoning. The idea is the Boy can make many models quickly but they are a meer one wound away from death. But, I'm not seeing that to be the case and in many instances the Dreamer quickly steams rolls by turn 3 when he has usually between 6 - 9 models more than he began. This puts him at a huge activation advantage and on turn 4 when he throws out a couple of Maddness to grab all his objectices.

 

Let's look at the models he summons:

Lelu + Lilitu, on their own there is nothing to consider really. They come in 1 wound and mabe get one or two from the Dreamer plus regen But, when you summon them both they heal all the way back to full for the most part. Dreamer summons two models, then drops his condition to 1, this heals them both two but since they share healing they both go up to four and then regen both 1 so that's 6 wounds gained. In 1 turn you made 14 stones of models that are fully wounded. THis works best on turn 1 or 2.

 

Stitched, I'll gladly make 3 and heal them 1 wound on their activation. Even with 2 wounds, the Hard to kill makes it so your opponent probably wont have the AP to kill them fast enough to prevent the steam roll from coming.

 

Coppelious, the issue with him is he has a fantastic healing ability. He's a geat 8 stone model that after a single successful hit can heal 2/3/5. Many times Ive seen him go just about back up to full wounds in a turn or two.

 

Maddness, nothing much to say, they are either invincible or glass depending on what hits them.

 

What I understand about the balance of summoning in this game is that the models that come in are not fully wounded or stat'ed in such a way that they are either easy to kill, hard to summon, or low on the damage out put. This offsets all the extra AP the summoning master generates for his crew. In the case of Dreamer, it would be unfair for these models to come into play fully wounded. Instead they got 1 wound, becuase this gives the opponenet a change to kill the model with a minimal AP investment. From my experience, this is not happening.

 

In most of my games with the Boy, he summons about 5/6 models by the end of turn 2. Excluding a few specfic masters who can output blasts damage or generates lots of extra free attacks, people are getting trapped behind the 8 and unless they do very well the first two turns, wind up so far behind in model counts that they have little to no chance to catch up. Turn 3 and 4 the Dreamer has plenty of AP to deny the opponent VP by robbing him of objective markers while easily tossing a few models out to take his own.

 

Then there is the Tannen+Teddy combo. It should be unlikely to get even a single teddy out this way. But, in almost all my games I make atleast 1 and in my last few i made upwards to 3 or 4. This I know is lucky, but it doesn't change the fact that a lucky hand could spell pretty much utter defeat when the Dreamer tosses some big scarry teddies out. Sure they are def 3 with 1 wound, but I'll glady place the teddies back a bit to avoid getting killed to easily and wait till they heal up a bit. Or I'll heal them with theh Dreamer's ap and then companion them, of course I'll have used a stone to make sure they were not slow so they can furry. Although, this I feel is probably going to get errated at some point. Hopefully along with Kirai being able to summon Hanged. But, that's another tale.

 

TLDR:

Dreamer summons really really well with even a little luck. He's storming up my local meta unless he faces Kirai or Nico who can sort of match his model recursion. How have your local meta's taken to him? Is he working really well, or people having trouble getting past his model counts or is it just me and my very lucky card drawing?

 

CHEERS! :D

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I've been concerned about the Dreamer summoning mechanic for awhile. That said, that's all I can safely contribute, concern. After my move there have been limited crews down here to play against, and while I own the Dreamer, I prefer to play Seamus, Molly, Pandora, and Lynch, and so I don't have any real direct experience playing or playing against him. So unfortunately I can't really contribute much to the conversation other than that.

 

As an addendum I agree about the Tannen Teddy Combo. There was a thread during the beta where people started flipping out one week and from then on that the Rogue Necromancy was getting summoned via 1 AP and thought it was too strong. Teddy should definitely not have been summonable via the Dreamer's summon.

 

Unfortunately can't comment much beyond that, and that he should be kept an eye on, like anything else people have made threads of concern about, like Colette, the Mechanical Rider, and Rotten Belles. 

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Does that mean Rotten Belles are no longer dominating your meta? The thing I love about this game is that there are so many things that seem completely game breaking and on their own probably would be. Schemes, strats, and the likelihood that most games are only 5 turns long are really the strokes of balance genius in this game.

Personally, despite being able to bring the twins effectively for free (though not really since you pay 5ss for the upgrade) I still think Lilith is a better all rounder than Dreamer is.

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Summoner Dreamer isn't really a significant force in our meta.  Thus far, most of the games involving him that I've seen have either seen him summoning his (generally low-defense) models forward (in which case they just get shot by minions and killed) or they get summoned back a bit behind cover and the opponent just runs around getting their schemes done while the Dreamer plays around with his summoning.   By the time he's ready to go, the opponent is usually halfway up the board in good positions with their scheme markers down, making it difficult for him to make up his points in the second half of the game.

 

The same thing sort of happens with our Nicodem players.  The longer he faffs about in his deployment zones digging up corpses and building his crew up, the more time he's giving his opponent to get their points.  The games where he just pushes forward with his crew and uses summoning to augment his forces have generally turned out much better for him.  

 

Zoraida and Lilith are on the top of our Neverborn pile at the moment; one of our players picked up Lucius last month and is getting pretty scary with him, but he's usually showing up in Guild colors with Riflemen, so that doesn't really count. 

 

 

Do you have many ranged-focused crews in your area?  In my experience, crews with notable shooting focuses - Guild, Gremlins, and Outcasts, around our parts - make it very difficult for the Dreamer to go heavy on the summoning, due to how easy it is (even through cover) to just put a bullet in something's head and call it good.

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we still start out with 3-4 bells per any rezer master 2 being the bare minimum.

You start out a list by including them.

 

The problem with the new game it is a scheme based and you are scoring throughout the game based on diverging your models AP to generate VP. When you summon tons of significant models you achieve victory conditions with little to no hassle.

 

FIX: Summoned models cannon interact and never count for objectives to provide you VP. Suddenly summoners have to think about their model placement at the minimum.

 

Example: Turn 5 Nico summons a bells and runs her into corner for outflank ~ stupid

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I played Dreamer a lot after the beta, now I haven't played him in months. He is an amazing master no doubt about that. 

 

The summoning mechanic has seemed to me as really easy and a bit too good maybe. I highly think that the Summoner path is far superior to the Chompy path. Stitched Togethers can be quite bad as their own, but with 6ss you have to think about including them. On a Dreamer list when you can summon them and just get them over the Hard to kill threshold and just spam Gamble your life they become a bit too much. Tannen + Dreamer combo seems too much, if you get 3-4 Teddies a game (that's ridiculous) it is broken as hell :D I have managed to pull off 1 or did I manage 2, it still felt filthy. You do need Tannen + 13 of Masks or the Red Joker so it's 6ss + only two cards from the deck but still, it probably shouldn't have happened. 

 

He does bring in models with ease. 

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The dreamers summoning capabilities are very good, and sure he is good, or very good, at schemes requiring interact etc but he is more than beatable.....:

1) attack dreamer directly: drain his hand by forcing him to pass off attacks. He won't be able to cheat summoning then.

2) I would argue that he is the most vulnerable model to blasts in the game, especially if it's a Ca actions as you always won't 2-3 nightmares near him. Raspy and sonnia are very difficult to beat....!

3) those models all require a 9+ to summon. If you don't have the cards in hand you are relying on a 1/3 chance of the card coming up, so on averages only summon 1 model per turn (10- RJ =4.2 out of 13)

3a) to ensure you get those high cards a) to summon and B) gamble your life you are likely to be burning 2-3 stones for extra cards per game, unless Lady Luck has taken a shine to you.... Suddenly to make the summoning upgrade work it can be upto 8 stones. Compare this to sonnia and her stupid witching summon upgrade- that's potentially worse IMO- I've seen 5 witch lungs summoned of of it...!

6) if you are just summoning dreamer isn't buffing his crew- you have to puck what you want to do.

7) he still sucks at reckoning and isn't great at turf war.

IMO essentially making summoned models insignificant is a bad idea. It will ruin the game balance and won't happen in any event, not this edition. I'd say sure, make then insignificant the turn they come in, but dreamer can remove conditions anyway.

Summoning more than 1 teddy using the tannin mechanic is pure luck- it would be like claiming Seamus gun is op- potentially, but not in real terms.

The twins, together, I agree is harsh, but there are many counters to a dreamer crew: you just have to plan carefully and adapt....

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Around us I experienced similar issues. A Dreamer player won 2 out of 2 tournaments. In one I was also playing and we both maxed TP's but never met on the table and he won by secondary conditions easily. Others feel the Master is way too strong but I could not comment on this since I have never faced the Dreamer. The summoning is certainly quite good and I really don't see why should we allow Tannen's Ability to work on Masters (it is not just about Teddy, it is about EVERY summoned model he makes with a :mask), but until I can get a few games against it I won't say he is over the top.

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 ...This I know is lucky, but it doesn't change the fact that a lucky hand could spell pretty much utter defeat...

 

CHEERS! :D

This, I believe, holds true for every master in the game.

 

As for Dreamer....he is my first love, and primary master, and what got me into the game.  I play him a lot.  I have won games with him quite handily...and he is the reason for my 10vp game (full disclosure: that game was Chompy Dreamer, not summoner) - and I have lost games with Dreamer in spectacular fashion.  Lets consider Dreamer's summoning prowess.

 

It is true, you can potentially summon 5 or 6 models by the end of turn 2; provided that you have the 9+ cards/flips to pull them off.  That is 2/3's of your deck that does not provide summoning for you.  That is of course, presuming that a daydream was sac'd to provide the mask.  We also have the additional cost of the models coming in with one wound...not as much of an issue with the twins to be sure, but for the rest...it is an issue, because if you're locked in your deployment zone for two turns summoning 6 models, what you're not doing, matters just as much:  you're not healing, nor removing conditions from them.  Yes, you have produced 6 models in two turns....all 6" from your deployment zone that have one wound keeping them from death (except the Twins), and slow.  Don't underestimate slow as a cost when being summoned....only 1AP for models without any real range and unable to interact means all they can do is move in hopes for a better position next turn.  For slow, Dreamer can summon with  :mask :mask :crow so the models do not have slow....but that becomes a flip of long odds, as only 6 cards afford you this opportunity, unless you burn a stone for each summon...which I submit is a poor choice.

 

There are several factors that can make Dreamer a beast, or reduce him to glorified ineffectiveness.  FIrst, the strategies and schemes...some lend well, while others...not so much.  Your opposing crew also play a part in that.  If you're playing summoner, trying to pop out 3 models a turn against, say...Perdita.  Expect to have a bad day...provided that your opponent responds in the anticipated way.

 

All in all....if you're summoning that much, you're basically handing your opponent two turns to get in position and start on their schemes relatively unimpeded before your crew can really get going, or in your words, steam roll on your opponent.  Starting the game turn three, even with a larger SS crew, still places you two turns behind and facing an uphill battle, IMO.  When I have been able to steam roll my opponent with an overwhelming number of models summoned by Dreamer; most of the time it has been when I am facing an elite crew (a small collection of high cost models).

 

Model review:

Insidious Madness: 9 :mask :mask

Pro: excellent at objective running, good support, incorporeal. 

Con: has no real offensive capability to speak of, low wounds.

 

Stitched Together: 10  :mask :mask

Pro: hard to kill and reactivate (once healed).  Excellent control, good objective, gable will disrupt opponent plans if you can get him within 6"

Con: slow

 

Twins: 11  :mask :mask

Pro: shared healing, shared conditions, good offensively, good with objectives, resilient.

Con: shared conditions, moderate damage.

 

Coppelius: 12  :mask :mask

Pro: great offensively...can be excellent with a few eyes, great objective running, can play some control.

Con: fragile without eyes, can be slow to get going.

 

Teddy: 15  :mask :mask (can only be summoned with 6ss and two cards: 13  :mask or red joker)

Pro: excellent offense, decent resilience with healing.

Con: huge target (rarely lasts in my games)

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The dreamers summoning capabilities are very good, and sure he is good, or very good, at schemes requiring interact etc but he is more than beatable.....:

1) attack dreamer directly: drain his hand by forcing him to pass off attacks. He won't be able to cheat summoning then.

 

Shhh!  They really need to focus on his nightmares, right?  Because they're like...scary and stuff.

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The Teddy summoning is not that bad. You need the right cards plus an upgrade and Tannen; that is a batch of luck and 11ss. If you are still worried as an opponent, just kill Tannen.

 

Stitched spam can be such a pain to face, due reactivate and hard to kill. But there is certainly ways around that too.

 

In the end, I do not see how any of this is worse than that Nico, Molly, Kirai's summoning. It just sucks to face at times, deal with it ^^

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So what you asking is a cuddle. Have you ever actually tried attacking the dreamer himself? Or are the scary nightmares dragging your attention from the child. Drop attacks on him and watch how he can no longer summon. Or heal since he is dead. Butbutbut he can pass off attacks. Sure at the cost of a card and usually the day dream he wants to use for summon. And if you target his wp he needs a mask, so stone cheat and still the cost of another card. Dreamers worst fear Rasputina and Sonnia. Or stacking poison and blowing him up.

So can it be good yes. Would it seem really good if your opponent never played against a summoningmaster sure. But by no means is it over powered.

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So what you asking is a Cuddle. Have you ever actually tried attacking the dreamer himself? Or are the scary nightmares dragging your attention from the child. Drop attacks on him and watch how he can no longer summon. Or heal since he is dead. Butbutbut he can pass off attacks. Sure at the cost of a card and usually the day dream he wants to use for summon. And if you target his wp he needs a mask, so stone cheat and still the cost of another card. Dreamers worst fear Rasputina and Sonnia. Or stacking poison and blowing him up.

So can it be good yes. Would it seem really good if your opponent never played against a summoningmaster sure. But by no means is it over powered.

  

Dreamer probably has the best summoning game at the moment. Best doesn't necessarily mean broken, somebody's got to sit at the top of the heap after all. Teddy thing is a fun bit of oversight that might benefit from some attention.

Exactly...!

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A few things:

 

1) I don't think it hurts the Dreamer at all to summon 6 models for two turns. It was meantioned that doing so gives the opponent two turns of positioning but its really not true. First we have daydreams, who will push your models up anywhere from 4 to 12" depending on how you deploy and use them and if you hire all 3. Then the Dreamer summons them 6" plus base size away. So the models themselves already get a big move foward. Turn 2 you'll turn into LCB who can just walk twice forward. Plus the Dreamer is movement 7 with incorporeal. In none of my games have I ever felt like I was too delayed by summoning for 2 whole activations.

 

2) I honestly don't believe attacking the Dreamer is a viable option to counter his summoning. I think the only time you'll get into a position to even see the Kid is if the Dreamer player made a mistake. The kid is ht 1, incorpreal, and small based; if you are playing with the right amount of terrain the kid should only be visible if he misplays. Playing against a person and your only hope of winning is if he makes a mistake is not really game balance. Player smarter or being luckier should matter more than just one person not mistepping. That was the probably with Dreamer in 1.5, the only way you realy won was when he mssed up, be as good as you like, the Dreamer still has to drop the ball.

 

The only thing I can say against the summoning being too good now is that you simply have to have 3 x 9+ cards each turn. But, it just has so rarely been an issue for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. Which is why I wanted to see if other peeps be having any issues summoning. (Let's not forget that the dreamer has a spamable model with a card draw mechanic and the kid can give out conditiions that draw cards when models attack, so its not like he is hurting ofr cards).

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How are people hiding a Ht 1 model when anything with ht 2 can easily see it from half the table as long as there is nothing Ht 2 in the middle? I mean, you can put two Ht 2 models in front, but there is no difference whatsoever between your master being Ht 1 or Ht 2. Hell, Ht 1 only seems to matter for being seen by other Ht 1 models.

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The only worthy of concern thing to me is that this one may limit the presence of effective other-models-healers thoughout the whole faction

 

The summoning is certainly quite good and I really don't see why should we allow Tannen's Ability to work on Masters[...]

The first thing that comes to mind, in fact, is to limit the interactions of the other models...

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How are people hiding a Ht 1 model when anything with ht 2 can easily see it from half the table as long as there is nothing Ht 2 in the middle? I mean, you can put two Ht 2 models in front, but there is no difference whatsoever between your master being Ht 1 or Ht 2. Hell, Ht 1 only seems to matter for being seen by other Ht 1 models.

I don't think I have ever played on a table where it isn't trivially easy to hide a non-Ht 3 model. Incorporeal also helps tremendously, as hiding doesn't mean that he can't get to places easy afterwards.
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Um... easily as long as you have the right amount of terrain. There should be plenty of ht2 terrain. Or as you said ht2 model. Not sure what boards ye be playing on...

 

 

I don't think I have ever played on a table where it isn't trivially easy to hide a non-Ht 3 model. Incorporeal also helps tremendously, as hiding doesn't mean that he can't get to places easy afterwards.

Yeah, but dreamer being ht 1 doesn't come into the equation almost never which was my point. People mention how Ht 1 is "easier to hide" when that only applies against other Ht 1 models, and most times, the things you want to hide from aren't Ht 1

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exactly I found it superbly detrimental when playing against a summoner such as dreamer as his high mobility + incorporeal makes it tremendous effort to catch up. You are also unable to deny his board movement / summoning placement unlike many other masters that rely heavily on corpse/scrap counters.

 

If dreamer was forced to place his model next to another friendly nightmare this will limit the blow off summoning by restricting his endless mobility and force to plan ahead his movement.

 

 

actualy.... this sound like a decent fix. he can summon daydreams/alps anywhere but forced to summon other nightmares in b2b with another nightmare within 6 inches

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Honest question to ETA Hoffman and whoever else would like to answer.

 

Do you find Dreamer to be noticeably better than Lilith, Jacob, Collodi, etc? 

 

I agree that he's a powerful master and summoning is a big part of his power but I often feel like other masters are as viable or sometimes more viable picks depending on the schemes and strategies. If you are spending 5ss for the summoning upgrade, 4-6ss for mobility from daydreams, additional soulstones or daydreams for the required suits to cast his spells and 3 9+ cards per turn you are committing ~20% of your soulstone resources and in most cases the top end of your hand every turn. I think the trade off is worth it in many cases but in many cases I'd much rather have a stacked hand from lilith + primordial with less activations than a depleted hand with the dreamer. 

 

I don't feel that the mr. Tannen interactions with Dreamer are particularly strong although they are decent. I tend to take tannen when I want him for his cooler and chatty abilities, otherwise not. 

 

The other thing I have not seen mentioned so I thought I would throw it out there: Does anyone else feel that a lot of the nightmares basically pay a summoning tax? Meaning they are not good enough stat and ability-wise for their soulstone cost because of the fact they can be summoned? What I notice is that when I'm playing a game with a synergy independent master like pandora, zoraida or lilith there are quite a few nightmares that I will basically never hire. 

 

  • Compare alps to marionettes. I will hire 3-4 marionettes almost every time I play Collodi. I will sometimes summon but never hire alps when playing the Dreamer. 
  • Compare lelu and lilitu to beckoners, coryphee, illuminated, black blood shaman, doppleganger etc. I think lelu and lilitu are good to summon with the Dreamer because they heal so fast but I don't hire them (occasionally I'll hire a lilitu on her own) 
  • Coppelius, I have no idea why people rate coppelius so highly. I hear people talking about how he's good on offense? Without focusing he does weak damage 1 and for the same price as someone who is as card dependent for triggers as coppelius is (after Summoning dreamer has crushed your hand) you can take baby kade with depression for the same price, who only needs a throwaway low crow. Kade is legitimately good on offense. I can see coppelius as sort of a glorified insidious madness for running schemes while beating up on other scheme runners a bit. He also really suffers from being summoned in at low health because he doesn't heal quickly and getting eyeballs with df 4 and low wounds before being deleted off the board is not easy. 
  • Stitched are solid 6ss models. They have some very nice synergy with the dreamer by healing above hard to wound and some anti-synergy as well by the opponent being able to use their card advantage to turn gamble your life attempts back on the stitched. Outside of Dreamer and sometimes Collodi I don't tend to hire these. 
  • Insidious madness I like summoning with the dreamer and hiring with pandora because of the wp synergy. These feel about right for a 5ss wp centric objective runner. 

I think daydreams, weaver widow and teddy are all solid models in their own right and well worth the price of hiring. I use both weaver widow and teddy in many neverborn crews and would use daydreams in other neverborn crews (PANDORA!!!) if I could. 

 

 

I guess to summarize my position: I find summoner dreamer good, right up there with but not really better than: Lilith, Collodi, Jacob and Pandora. I find him more versatile than Jacob and Pandora, about as versatile as Collodi (grrrr reckoning!) and less versatile than Lilith, who seems to be good at everything. 

 

If dreamer's summoning is overpowered I don't think it's because of the strength of his nightmares. I find many of the nightmares to be sub-par for their cost and only see the light of day because of summoning and niche hiring. 

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