Nightmares and Teddy Bears - The Dreamer Tactica

[santaclaws01]

You could also greenstuff them if you were so inclined.

Another option for Twin proxy would Young Nephilim conversions.

[Tinweasel]

So I've copied the posts of the Tactica, revised them in Word, and printed them out for study. I'm just getting into The Dreamer, even though I've been working on the Translucent Pink set since last year's Black Friday. He's now to the point where he's playable and I've got 2-3 months of Malifaux play experience with Rasputina under my belt.

Great writeup! Very informative and very helpful to a new wannabe Dreamer player!

 

One thing I was wondering, though, is why people seem to favor Aether Connection versus Stone of Tyrant Echoes? I mean, I can see how Stone has limitations in that The Dreamer might suffer damage indirectly without being actively targeted by an Action (a blast from December's Curse bounced back off a Daydream, say), but I think being able to bump Df potentially up to 7 and Wp similarly up to 8 for spending a Soulstone might be more beneficial in a duel than simply mitigating 1 point of damage solely from a Soulstone on a prevention flip.

Opinions?

[Fetid Strumpet]

The stone upgrades for all factions are...relatively never takes in my opinion. You are 100% correct that they potentially are better, but that is the key word. Potentially. They offer a bonus with inherently high variance, and variance is something ALL competitive players try to minimize, either through cutting it to the bone as much as possible, or embracing it enough that through law of averages they mitigate it. The Dreamer really doesn't have the second option.

The first problem is in order to get the ability to add a random stat bonus to your defensive score you have to spend 1 stone before the game begins and burn 1/3rd of your slots for upgrades to even get the ability to do so. So there is a high opportunity cost. Second you have to be targeted with an attack that your cards alone couldn't make the difference on, and just happen to flip high enough to cause them to miss. In certain circumstances you are absolutely correct it is massive, but you can't count on that massive boost...really at all. Which brings us to the third problem, you can't do it retroactively. You have to do it before you know what the opponent flips, before you flip, before the opponent cheats, or before you cheat. You have to do it the moment you are targeted, which means some of the time the ability will have cost you the high opportunity costs, as well as a stone, to do absolutely nothing. If you could do it after final duel totals were calculated, they would be MUCH better, possibly too good, but as it is, the high variance just doesn't make them a good investment.

Conversely, while stoning for prevention is also high variance it is mitigated somewhat. Firstly, unless using SS is factored into the cost of the model, which from my experience through play testing I don't believe it is, you aren't paying any opportunity cost to even have the ability to mitigate damage, and if you are through SS costs, it is very minimal. Secondly you get to do it after you know the results and how much damage and what triggers are possibly heading your way. While the amount of prevention is variable you are always going to get something out of the deal, and the law of averages will see to it in general you usually prevent 2 dmg, taking the long view.

Enter Aether Connection. You are paying the same opportunity costs as the Stone upgrade, 1 SS and a slot, but the results are VASTLY more stable. Firstly you get all the benefits of normal SS prevention use, and it makes all those prevention flips even better, as now you are averaging 3 points of prevention, which is the average dmg from an entire swing from a melee beater's weak dmg, essentially making spending a stone on prevention the average equivalent of making a beater model totally miss you for an entire swing, and even the worst result is no worse than having spent 2SS (if the rules allowed you too, which they don't) on a single prevention flip and just preventing 1 dmg each time. So aside from taking up the upgrade slot you break even on the SS costs the very first time you spend a SS to prevent dmg, and it only gets more efficient from there. And critically, and I cannot stress this point enough, you get to do it After you know the results of the duel. If you win the duel either through top decking the needed card, or cheating in a card you've lost nothing as you don't need to spend the stone on prevention before you know you've been hit, and how much the dmg was for.

That is why the Stone upgrades are generally best ignored. They are legacy callback to an old mechanic in 1st edition that no longer exists, and can generally be forgotten about.

(As an FYI for newer players in 1e SS users used to be able to spend a stone to flip and add the flipped card entirely to their duel total. So for example if v1 Seamus was trying to hit you with his Bag O' Tools which was Ml 5, and flipped a 13 on his attack flip and had also spent a stone and flipped a 12 his final duel total would be 30.)

[RobertSirc]

So I've copied the posts of the Tactica, revised them in Word, and printed them out for study. I'm just getting into The Dreamer, even though I've been working on the Translucent Pink set since last year's Black Friday. He's now to the point where he's playable and I've got 2-3 months of Malifaux play experience with Rasputina under my belt.

OK, this is what is bad you had to copy some of these post put them in Word to study, Where there are fan driven Wiki's we should be updating for these tactics. I am glad to see a new player come to the Dreamer team,   

[MR TORGUE]

So I've copied the posts of the Tactica, revised them in Word, and printed them out for study. I'm just getting into The Dreamer, even though I've been working on the Translucent Pink set since last year's Black Friday. He's now to the point where he's playable and I've got 2-3 months of Malifaux play experience with Rasputina under my belt.

 

OK, this is what is bad you had to copy some of these post put them in Word to study, Where there are fan driven Wiki's we should be updating for these tactics. I am glad to see a new player come to the Dreamer team,   

Your on to something there; the tactica threads are so intimidating due to their sheer stop-start text mass. 

[Tinweasel]

Your on to something there; the tactica threads are so intimidating due to their sheer stop-start text mass.

Basically, I just wanted a print copy that was more organized with headings and such, color, and without typos. *shrug*. It's a good tactica...

[RobertSirc]

 

Your on to something there; the tactica threads are so intimidating due to their sheer stop-start text mass.

Basically, I just wanted a print copy that was more organized with headings and such, color, and without typos. *shrug*. It's a good tactica...

No it is a great tactica, the issue is that it is in a threat on a forum rather than in a clean and concise wiki. You are pouring through a shit ton of post on this threat to have to find the information you are looking for. I addressed this in another thread so I will stop my ranting about it.

[zeeblee]

I think this is one of the better thread ones since the first page is where the big summary is located (and on occasion updated).  But I agree that having to dig through long threads does not make for a good tactica.  Especially when they're old threads which may not consider new models/metas, but there isn't much way to know without also knowing model release dates.

[tomjoad]

If you have a problem with this thread, and think a wiki is better for tactics/tips/etc, why not take some fo the info here and update pullmyfinger? (Please copy edit before posting, though).

Edited December 17, 2015 by tomjoad

[daniello_s]

How do you summon stuff?

I was thinking about something like this:

- turn 1: move Dreamer into position and then summon two models. Reduce Waking with his (0) action so newly summoned models would heal 2.

- turn 2: summon 3 models which would make Dreamer buried. Then sacrifice Chompy so Dreamer would reappear near newly summoned models who would heal 3 at this stage.

- turn 3-4-5: summon something if needed or run Dreamer as support master for his newly summoned stuff.

Seems possible but how do you think?

[Viruk]

I'm not an expert y far (having played only 5 games with Dreamer) but it seems to me there isn't a straightforward answer. Sometimes when the opponent plays aggressively and gets close to your master turn one, it might be a good idea to go Chompy faster. It also depends on what you want your summons to do and where you send them. For example, if you summon both Lelu and Lilitu in one turn and then use accomplice (you neeed "Otherworldly" upgrade for that) to activate Lelu and attack with Vampiric Bite, you have two reasonably well healed enforcers (and they both regenerate more once Lilitu activates). So while what you've written makes sense, it all depends on the circumstances in the game your're playing. 

[daniello_s]

Tackling aggressive opponent shouldn't be a problem as I plan to run Dreamer with 2 Teddies. So anything which decided to go to close to Dreamer would get a hug from loving teddy bears

[lusciousmccabe]

22 hours ago, daniello_s said:

How do you summon stuff?

I was thinking about something like this:

- turn 1: move Dreamer into position and then summon two models. Reduce Waking with his (0) action so newly summoned models would heal 2.

- turn 2: summon 3 models which would make Dreamer buried. Then sacrifice Chompy so Dreamer would reappear near newly summoned models who would heal 3 at this stage.

- turn 3-4-5: summon something if needed or run Dreamer as support master for his newly summoned stuff.

Seems possible but how do you think?

Step two tends to be a trickier than you think since you can't Accomplice after summoning Chompy so you'll be leaving a bunch of 1 Wound models in harms way for several activations. Summoning via Daydreaming instead of Dreams of Pain can be a good idea at this stage because 1) you'll need to replenish your Daydreams some time 2) the summoned models come with more wounds and can help support your other models without drawing a huge amount of attention and 3) you'll get to hang on to more good cards/soulstones to actually hit stuff with Chompy and defend yourself

To be honest I haven't played a huge amount of games with the Dreamer but I've never summoned Chompy after taking Dreams of Pain. Summoning 3 things per round has always been too risky or card dependent so I usually just go for 1 or 2 and keep them better supported. There's also a massive temptation to use Dreamer's AP for walk actions, Empty Night and/or scheme running. Dropping significant dudes all over the board is kind of the Dreamer's forte and unfortunately it doesn't play particularly well with Lord Chompy Bits.

It is good to have the option of summoning Chompy when the Dreamer is in trouble so you shouldn't feel you need to keep the Waking condition as low as possible at all times. I often forget that and find myself wishing I could pop out Chompy but not having the cards/AP to do it.

[Viruk]

3 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Tackling aggressive opponent shouldn't be a problem as I plan to run Dreamer with 2 Teddies. So anything which decided to go to close to Dreamer would get a hug from loving teddy bears

Teddy is great with Dreamer, especially with extra pushes from Daydreams. Retribution's Eye and On Dreaming Wings can make them even nastier. You might have trouble with na room for scheme runners in your crew but you should still have fun. Beware though as Teddies can be Red Joker magnets (it happened to me in my yesterday's game against Pandora as he hugged himself to death). I hope you'll describe your Dreamer experiences on your blog

[Mutter]

Why is this still not pinned? O.o

[RobertSirc]

On February 13, 2016 at 5:36 AM, Mutter said:

Why is this still not pinned? O.o

I think it was and it was unpinned for Collodi.

[Mutter]

7 hours ago, RobertSirc said:

I think it was and it was unpinned for Collodi.

How does that make any sense?

[Shadowfane]

Nah, Collodi's always been pinned.

This just hasn't been pinned yet is all

[Pikciwok]

Dear Moderator, please pin this glorious topic so that new Neverborn players can easely find this gem of wargaming wisdom.

 

Thank you.

[mythicFOX]

16 minutes ago, Pikciwok said:

Dear Moderator, please pin this glorious topic so that new Neverborn players can easely find this gem of wargaming wisdom.

 

Thank you.

<modhat>

Seen as you asked so nicely.

It's done.

</modhat>

[RobertSirc]

https://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/M2E+Dreamer

[zeeblee]

I'm especially happy this one got pinned since the first posts are occasionally updated with fresh info, and it's more in-depth than the PMF. Huzzah!

[Lyraeus]

This is exactly what I needed! Been thinking about the dreamer and this is the information I was looking for! 

[DeadManTalking]

So figured this would be the best place to post this. Not claiming this to be an original idea at all, but I just played a game with a list I'd been wanting to try for a while now (with amazing results I might add). Looking to get people's opinions and see if anyone else has tried something similar.

Dreamer: 6ss, summoning upgrade, wings of darkness, otherworldly(this one could be swapped out)

Nekima: both growth upgrades

Doppelganger

2 daydreams

3 terror tots

After using the activation wasters dreamers turn one priority is to summon the twins, if you can get them out with the trigger it's possible to get a turn one grow on a tot by luring out a model for nekima to eat. 

[lusciousmccabe]

What makes you prioritize Wings of Darkness over Otherworldly?