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Might we get an update on TtB?


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Regarding the second point, what of companies refusing to give refunds to shareholders who just want out? If the TtB KS comments section is to be believed, there are at least a handful of backers who just want their money back.

Which, at least from an outsider's perspective, seems win-win to Wyrd. They give back the money they've borrowed, which has either earned them interest in the traditional invested in a savings account method, or it has earned them interest in the form of profits made from using said funds to make product which sold at whatever level of markup. Meanwhile, it frees up the rewards for Wyrd to sell for additional units of profit, especially if done so during Gencon, where they already get to take home a much bigger slice of the pie.

I am not a Wyrd Spokesman so I have no "official" ruling in anything Wyrd related.  But, if it were my kickstarter and you wanted out.  Then just send me a nice letter asking for your money back.  But, remember if you accepted the PDF and Wyrd were to attach a value to that then you could be liable to pay for that license.  

That or they could minus the refund of that from the money they owe you back.  Which unless you pledged in excess of 10k you might owe Wyrd some change?   :D Perhaps up to 9k USD or so... :P 

But, I really doubt Wyrd would be that mean.  I know I would be.....

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Maybe it's anomaly on my sample size, but of the other games whose Kickstarters I've looked at, it seems that most already have the pdf of the game ready to go when they decide to hit go on the campaign. Dollar backers and / or casual visitors to their sites can walk away with rules. It's the figures and accessories that they monetize.

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Just FYI the "official" GenCon TtB events are having to use the PDF copies as well.  While I understand everyone's frustration one should realize the funding Kickstarter is not the same thing as being a consumer.  It is being a shareholder of a project.  That does come with with a different set of priorities that Wyrd must do.  Do I think everyone should get everything that they were promised as reward?  Most definitely.  If you don't like being a shareholder then don't support kickstarter projects.

This is a bit funny to me as the opposite has been used as a defense many, many times over the months. Shareholders are generally much less understanding about a lack of communication especially in regards to significant delays.

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This is a bit funny to me as the opposite has been used as a defense many, many times over the months. Shareholders are generally much less understanding about a lack of communication especially in regards to significant delays.

 

Honestly, Wyrd is providing the exact same level of transparency to its backers that Apple provides to its developers:  Everyone finds out at the same time.

 

Likely for the same reason:  Because if you tell something to two thousand people, you may as well tell it to everyone. 

 

Treating backers like investors would start with non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements.

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Honestly, Wyrd is providing the exact same level of transparency to its backers that Apple provides to its developers:  Everyone finds out at the same time.

 

Likely for the same reason:  Because if you tell something to two thousand people, you may as well tell it to everyone. 

 

Treating backers like investors would start with non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements.

I seem to recall Backers having to sign NDA's in order to get access to the Backers only Forum where the play testing was occurring.

 

I find it odd that Wyrd is getting such a break on here while another recent Indiegogo campaign had people here (some of whom are defending Wyrd) calling for torches and pitchforks only a few days after the delivery date was missed. That thread is sitting at 22 pages and has had the same complaints as TtB (but a hell of a lot more vitriol). Backers aren't generally asking for much or even very special treatment, they are asking for better communication. A backer shouldn't have to visit 4+ different internet locations to find the little bit of information pertaining to the KS when there are already two great methods for it (the Kickstarter announcement option and/or the Backers only TtB forum). Even the recent KS update didn't provide the "extra" explanation that the followers of A Wyrd Place received (not all of whom were backers) while the TtB "backers" forum has been radio silent from any "official" Wyrd personnel since Mack's departure (and truthfully even before that).

 

In the end its Wyrd's decision how they handle things but they need to know that this campaign has really hurt a lot of the formerly great reputation they built and enjoyed. I can't ignore an issue when I see it despite the fact that I have promoted Wyrd products for a long time (longer than most) and consider many of the Wyrd personnel to be friends (going to miss catching up with them during GenCon).

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Mister Shine that is a bad example, those other people out of 1500 might not have pledged enough to be a big deal for them, they can be complaining to Wyrd by e-mail and don't even use the forums, and for the so called 20 "angry" people, they probably are those that pledged a lot of money.

 

Its not a matter of how many people but how many invested/pledge most money that it matters for them, would you just sit back and wait if you had invested between $225 and $750 (Secret pledger taken into account) and nothing really happened, if you do then you might want to remember that not everyone can throw around money carelessly.

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Personally, I think there would be a lot less vitriol if the update we were given on the kickstarter had been told to us a week or two ago, and we had gotten the "aWyrdPlace" explanation on the KS site. 

 

The problem is that we have different information being given to different people(and the more in depth information being given on a forum that has little to do with the kickstarter specifically, when it should be on the kickstarter site) as well as very little information, only really given out when someone complains loud enough.

 

It's like they want to hear constant complaining. Even the people who have B@$%ched the loudest and longest have mostly conceded that the problem is the radio silence, and not so much the wait itself; when it takes 7+ weeks to hear anything, especially with Gencon approaching, people get very nervous.

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transcribed from A Wyrd Place for those who dont have access. Originally posted  by EricJ on 07.Jul.2014:

 

 

 

 

Hey Wyrd Placians, I figured I'd give you guys a bit more personal touch to the update! Basically, the lack of communication is 100% my fault, and due to a workload which is crazy...of course I caused the crazy workload, so no one to blame but me. Combined with losing a few employees in May who were on this project, along with all the Gen Con prep...lets just say I'm a bit overwhelmed. Again, no one to blame but myself, but I wanted to give you some insight there.

 

The minis have been a bit of a pain (ok, HUGE pain), as we wanted them to match the most up to date artwork for TTB we started them a bit late. We SHOULD have had plenty of time to get them done still, with months to spare, but that's where the confusions started to arise. First off, the factory we're working with had never done multi-piece/multi-pose minis, and despite their assurances over and over, it took a lot longer to get them to work properly so that arms/heads/weapons/etc... were actually truly swappable. We've finally gotten it all worked out, and then the sizing issue arose. Needless to say, 3 months of buffer time turned into a month late due to these (and a few other speed bumps). So that's the insight!

 

On the bright side, now we know how to make them happen, and with all the time we've put into them, I think they are going to turn out pretty special!

 

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Hey I pledged a crapton,(note the secret level art asset) am not in a situation where that money isnt felt. And yup I am still waiting patiently. I think there could have been more communication sure,  but most people I know who backed it are in the same boat: waiting, wanting it soon, but not throwing out the RAWRWYRDDEVILS vitriol that seems to be taking center stage

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Meh.  Such is the human experience; we all perceive things differently.  Between my circle of friends and I, we've got about $700 tied up in this thing (2 gaming rooms and a dining room tier, plus 3 x S&H), so yeah, feeling a little antsy to have that finally delivered on.

 

As for that AWP 'personal touch' note; ehhhhh.  You know what might've prevented a lot of the vitriol and frustration?  Telling us there were issues when they arose.  It sounds like there were tons of issues, and y'know what?  I like to think I'm a pretty reasonable dude.  If they'd dropped an update noting the issues he's talking about back when they happened, I suspect we wouldn't be nearly at this point.

 

Would some people still be frustrated?  Sure.  ARGLE BARBLE WARGLE angry?  Probably, but out of 1500 people you're ALWAYS going to have some on the extremes, so painting them with the 'oh look this is why we can't have nice things' brush is dishonest.

 

Oh well, update received, and there's a light at the end of the tunnel, though judging how far away it is remains difficult, as it doesn't actually note when things will be going out, just that they will "soon".

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@Tograth;

 

Thank you for reposting the A Wyrd Place update. I must admit though that it irritates me more than a bit. Granted there are TtB backers that frequent the facebook page but not all of them are. The "personal touch" that Eric mentions should have been posted to the Kickstarter backers via a backer update (which they have utilized before) that made the entire project possible and not a location that anyone with a Facebook account can access (or those backers without can not).

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The Wyrd Place facebook group is a closed group, so that post wasn't accessible to everyone, and my guess is there are a lot of backers who aren't members of that group either.

 

That information should've been included in the update to backers if it was going to be included anywhere else. Thanks to Tograth for reposting.

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I seem to recall Backers having to sign NDA's in order to get access to the Backers only Forum where the play testing was occurring.

The click through agreement with practically no enforceability? Again, see "Tell a secret to two thousand people."

 

I find it odd that Wyrd is getting such a break on here while another recent Indiegogo campaign had people here (some of whom are defending Wyrd) calling for torches and pitchforks only a few days after the delivery date was missed. That thread is sitting at 22 pages and has had the same complaints as TtB (but a hell of a lot more vitriol). Backers aren't generally asking for much or even very special treatment, they are asking for better communication. A backer shouldn't have to visit 4+ different internet locations to find the little bit of information pertaining to the KS when there are already two great methods for it (the Kickstarter announcement option and/or the Backers only TtB forum). Even the recent KS update didn't provide the "extra" explanation that the followers of A Wyrd Place received (not all of whom were backers) while the TtB "backers" forum has been radio silent from any "official" Wyrd personnel since Mack's departure (and truthfully even before that).

 

How many examples of people being unreasonable concerning deadlines do you want to find on the Internet?  You can flood the seas and outnumber the grains of sand on the beach with them if you want.

But maybe I'm just biased towards the expectation of delays, because four-for-four the first non-comic book projects that I backed had huge, terrible, horrible schedule problems because the people involved had things go wrong that they weren't expecting: Ogre, Marc Miller's Traveller, Reaper Mini's Bones, and this one. But in each case, eventually, the promised final product arrived.

I expect that the future me that gets to receive his paper copy of Through the Breach and the rest of the rewards is going to thank present an past me for the patience involved.

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You know what's sad?

That in a scant couple of years, Ogre being a year late went from being mockery worthy, tragic and unpalatable to "the status quo".

 

It's an indictment of the whole system (backers, creators and KS itself) that people are willing to give tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars to people whom often don't have the courtesy to at least follow up and keep people apprised.

 

It's not the size that matters.  Xia is being done by *one guy* and he's kept his backers informed every step of the way, best I can tell.

 

Of course there will be complaints.  Again, if we're going to go with the lowest common denominator using a self selecting group of dozens, hundreds or thousands of people on the internet, there will be shenanigans from the start to the end.  Claiming that as a defense is bull.  We are way too late in the game to throw up ones hands and state 'omg some people are mean on the internet' as though it justifies minimal communications.  Can't keep the backers updated, some people will say mean things!  Can't give updates to the time frame, some people will say mean things!

 

How about we accept that mean things are going to be said regardless and instead treat the remaining folks like adults.

Because being treated like children just because some people can't act like it is a good way to garner ire too.  So one would think that acting in good faith and doing a commendable job would trump silence and platitudes.

 

Note that I'm not specifically speaking of this campaign.  This is something that is becoming a pet peeve of mine, both creator's being unable to set dates AND UPDATE THE BACKERS WHEN AND WHY THINGS CHANGE, and the backer community brushing off half year delays without explanation as though it's unreasonable to expect a company to act in a professional capacity.

And the more people just come to accept it as the status quo, the more empowered creators are to play fast and loose with time frames and watch the backers tear each other apart when someone has the audacity to ask why a 9 month project is now lined up for 3 years for full delivery.

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Have to echo that it's pretty sad that Kickstarter standards are so low. Yes, people underplan, who knew, but a lot of the grief can be stopped by just being plain transparent and communicative. I can understand how Nathan would prefer to just dig a hole and hide since he can't really give any good news, but in something like this, it's better to juts be upfront about how the shit hit the fan and what is being done to correct it because silence just makes people think too much and go to dark places.

 

Screwing up your budget/deadlines is still bad, but with a constant stream of communication it can at least be palatable. That there is such a lack of corporate knowledge in kickstarter is very distressing, though to a degree not surprising seeing how it's mostly people with a dime and a dream or expanding out of their initial sector, but it's just so rampant I can never go for the idea of actually pledging. Hell, only "kickstarter" I've participated is for Mighty No 9 and it wasn't the inital campaign, it was in the new campaign that came 2 days ago and only because I like what I see and it seems Inafune has a very good grasp of the release slot.

 

Anyway, I hope both parties, Wyrd and the backers, can get this whole shibang finally dealt with and be decently happy with the results.

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When it comes to kickstarter, it is disappointing that companies take a lot longer to achieve things than they expect, however although I subconsciously add 6 months to any estimated delivery date, this is only because of past history. I would much prefer if companies could give more realistic release dates.

 

I do give a bit more slack if a company is moving into an area they haven't worked before, or if the project is significantly more successful than they may have thought, but where a company consistently overfunds their projects by a significant margin, then they have no real excuse for delays, as this should be factored into their calculations (it also means that if they don't overfund by quite as much they should be delivering early). There is at least one company that I won't be backing further kickstarters from for this very reason, and they keep launching new campaigns before finalising the previous one (yet using them as examples of success).

 

Part of the reason I liked the TtB campaign is that the pledge levels were simple, and it was not calculated to encourage people to spend more through add-ons, which did have a self-limiting effect on the success of the Kickstarter. It is, however, unfortunate that the original production date was optimistic (even if had only just funded I think this was a pipe dream, particularly when we take M2E into account, which must have already been in planning) and that backers were not kept informed through the Kickstarter update system - a regular update giving a bit of information of all aspects, not just the progress of the book, even if only once a month (on a schedule) would've done a lot to reduce the amount of angst in the comments.

 

From what I've noticed in the comments on TtB the complaints fall into 3 main categories - 1) People who are annoyed with M2E, and would probably be annoyed with Wyrd even without TtB (this is often the group saying that Malifaux is dead, despite evidence to the contrary), 2) People whose comments are mostly complaints, regardless of project, and give the impression of being self-entitled and 3) Those who are irritated by the delays/lack of communication, however are able to moderate their responses

 

Overall I think that the biggest issue is that Wyrd has misjudged what people expect from a Kickstarter, and their understandable caution in providing information about releases etc. has backfired. It also hasn't helped that there have been occasions where they have said that an update is forthcoming, yet the update doesn't happen or is light on information (rather than being comprehensive).

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I asked for a refund as soon as I figured out the game wasnt going to be compatible with 1.5, that was a year ago. I asked again this week, the aniversery of my first refund request. I got no response. I have asked time and time again if Hannah was going to get 1.5 stats. Seeing as how that was the eddition that was out, m2E wasn't announced until after the kickstarter finnished, when I backed the project. When I asked in every format I could I finally got at "she is in early development, we don't know." That was during the beta testing of m2e. Still no answer even though the project is supposedly shipping soon. I don't even know anymore, I'm not even angry anymore, just dissapointed.

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Seeing as how Hannah has an M2E Wave 2 stat card (despite being the box art for the Outcasts Wave 1 Arsenal Pack) and that there is, unfortunately, absolutely no official first edition Malifaux support, then, in all likelihood, she won't be packaged with anything beyond her base and M2E card.

While I do agree with you regarding the bait and switch of M2E before TtB was finalized, as soon as they announced second edition, all hope of a 1.5 Hannah died, despite the initial selling point of "we're giving you a model we don't even have stats for yet!"

I see Hannah either following Nightmare Edition Tara's footsteps, only being available to backers, at first, then maybe Gencon, and then their Black Friday through Cyber Monday sale with a regular model far off in the horizon, -or- she'll never get a different version, and what we see is what we get. With that being said, hopefully, you can sell yours at a premium to recoup some of your losses, in lieu of refunds they have said will not be happening.

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There are a lot of problems with kickstarter, mostly people still perceiving it in the same way as pre-orders and companies treating it like a pre-order system (looking at you CMoN and Battlefront). However I do not understand the people who backed an RPG just to get a model. Its cool and a nice thrown in, but the point was to create a malifaux rpg not a hannah model. At least with Fall schematic there was an entire separate tier for models.

 

I've done enough development work to know that its rare for anything to finish on schedule, and that pre-order mentality ingrained into many kickstarter users means that an excessive buffer time can lead to lost interest. However if a project is still in the early stages of development then delays will happen, and as long as there is progress being made on it then you will still receive your rewards. Even with production issues, partnership issues, and the general over-ambition of the project, Relic Knights still delivered. Granted EU/APAC shipping is likely getting held up by last minute production issues, but at least there is progress being made and confirmation that you will get your rewards eventually. I'm over a year late on my necrom amazon team due there being constant cloning issues, but batches are being sent out even if they're at a slow pace.

 

The TtB kickstarter has been kind of a perfect storm of bad opinion. Running it at around the same time as M2E developement is where I feel almost every complaint about the problem can be traced to. At the end of the day this isn't some 'Doom that came to Atlantic city" catastrophe, its just a project that picked a poor time to launch and has been plagued with production issues.

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