The Mechanical Rider needs to be nerfed.

[Joel]

Dreamer has far more access to healing though - not really a good comparison.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

ummm... not really. My argument is that the rider, on top of summoning very effectively, draws cards and drops schemes without cost. I'm agreeing with the OP.

[decker_cky]

It doesn't draw cards and drop schemes without cost. Both take actions that can fail (and to do both, it needs to succeed with both attacks). And consider that without drawing cards or dropping schemes, the rider's attack belongs on a 5-6SS model.

[Drool_bucket]

I think we should go back to the Hoarcat Pride.

 

This one time I faced it and it was way OP for its points.  If more people played the HC Pride I think Arcanists would have won all the top spots at AdeptiCon.

 

Maybe we should just rip all the Blue tabbed pages out of the book?

 

Then Green's next...  stupid Green.

[PolishSausage]

the problem is the auto trigger mechanic past certain turn for abilities that are heavily game altering that your opponent has no chance to thwart (forcing 2ndery test) ~ example bad juju paralyze trigger or dead rider horror test. Being able to place 1 scheme marker is huge from an attack, but placing 2 is auto win on many schemes giving auto 3 vp

[Malicte]

To say it brings things in "Mostly Dead" is I think a bit misleading.  Yeah, it may bring in models at low wounds, but if it's bringing in Metal Gamin (which seem to be the general purpose summon of choice) it's bringing in a decent Df model with 2 wounds and hard to kill.  This is likely to take 2-3 AP to drop.  This can still (potentially) be a liability in Reckoning, but outside of that it's likely to do nothing but help.

 

To say that the attacks belong on a 5-6 stone model without the triggers is also fairly misleading.  That's a true statement.  However,the fact is they *do* have the triggers to do that.  There were a number of games at Adepticon I both played in or watched the end of (Viks make for fast rounds...) wherein a player straight up could not afford to be hit by the Mech Rider, or give up points because of the scheme markers.  At that point it doesn't really matter how much damage it's doing.

[Malicte]

the problem is the auto trigger mechanic past certain turn for abilities that are heavily game altering that your opponent has no chance to thwart (forcing 2ndery test) ~ example bad juju paralyze trigger or dead rider horror test. Being able to place 1 scheme marker is huge from an attack, but placing 2 is auto win on many schemes giving auto 3 vp

 

Even though I'm in favor of the model being toned down, this is overstating it.  Placing 2 scheme markers is hardly an auto win on schemes.  On some schemes (Plant Explosive, Spring the Trap) it can be close to 3 automatic VP if late enough in a turn, but for most schemes it's not automatic points, just "very very good".

[Ausplosions]

Just because a relatively small group of people at one of the first big Tournaments since M2E broke have not yet figured out how to counter a model does NOT mean that model should be cuddled.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Let's count the schemes that could be automatically succeeded if you get one attack off on turn 5 (assuming that there is an enemy model in the correct position for the drop to be valuable).

 

Protect Territory, needs only 2 scheme markers, and 6" away from your DPZ, that's pretty easy.

Break Through, needs only 2 scheme markers but harder to use if your opponent didn't stick around in his zone.

Planet Explosives and Spring the Trap, honestly this is super easy. Late activation, charge and drop them schemes.

Planet Evidence, just gotta be on the enemies half of the table and one strike would give you three VP.

 

Without my book I can't make anymore up at the moment. But, it's obvious how amazing it is to drop 2 scheme markers onto of each other with a single attack ap.

[dgraz]

That... doesn't make any sense. In the context of our dialogue, that is. I'll try one more time.

I said that few models accomplish much on the first turn. I usually have many models that just move into position on the first turn and the models that accomplish something are, most of the time, models that move other models, models that have extreme range, very fast models (including extraordinary deployment options) or models that summon other models. I usually don't have many of those types of models (though naturally the ones that I do have, accomplish stuff). In other words, few of my models accomplish much on the first turn.

You disagreeing with this due to crews accomplishing stuff on the first turn is non-sensical.

Instead of saying you're being nonsensical, I'll just say that I believe we're looking at two different angles and we're obviously not making each other understand. You have a point in your head, I have a point in mine........you not understanding my thoughts does not make ME nonsensical. We've already tried to make each other understand our point a couple of times....obviously the communication process has broken down.

[Grim]

I don't know how the Mechanical Rider will fit in my Marcus crew lol.... Marcus should've been an Outcast.

[rgarbonzo]

All Riders can be taken down rather easily by anything that has blasts or targets Wp. Sonnia, Pandora, Zorida, Molly, Kirai, Brewmaster all can target Wp or have a Blast attack that can get around the Df trigger. There are also plenty of models in each faction (with the possible exception of Guild) that can target Wp for damage based attacks. I have played against Riders and I focus them down the first chance I get to stop the summoning and other (0) actions. Gremlins have an easier time of it with access to Moon Shinobi, Lightning Bugs, Ophelia and Wong, but all factions have actions and abilities that can stop any Rider dead in it's tracks. Pandora can simply Paralyze the Rider and keep it Paralyzed the entire game if she chooses, or she can then have Ama eat the paralyzed model. There are a lot of nasty things lurking, waiting to rear their head when they get put into widespread use. That doesn't mean they are OP, just different and may require a bit of thinking with how to deal with it. The Riders are not alone in this, there are other models who have not yet seen enough table time and will be declared OP when they are finally faced for the first time. 

[decker_cky]

I don't know how the Mechanical Rider will fit in my Marcus crew lol.... Marcus should've been an Outcast.

 

Whatever....Marcus gets to run a double summoner crew which doesn't take resources with the mech rider and spawn mother!

 

Marcus certainly doesn't have the same synergy others have, but all of the 4SS constructs tend to be very good value (arcane effigy IMO is the highlight of the list, for those "oh sh.." moments when you really condition removal). 

[Math Mathonwy]

Instead of saying you're being nonsensical, I'll just say that I believe we're looking at two different angles and we're obviously not making each other understand. You have a point in your head, I have a point in mine........you not understanding my thoughts does not make ME nonsensical. We've already tried to make each other understand our point a couple of times....obviously the communication process has broken down.

I wish to stress that I don't consider you nonsensical, merely what you wrote. Which means that we had a communication failure, which is a two-way street (so I certainly take some of the blame here). I really respect your expertise and opinion, which is why I was interested in this conversation.

If I may one more time try to say what I was trying to say and then you can evaluate whether you disagree or not?

Mech Rider is vulnerable for the first two turns meaning that you need to play carefully with her (i.e. not accomplishing much). But 12 stones is not an extraordinary amount of stones to spend on scheme-doing stuff that usually doesn't accomplish much during the first two turns. Or they might put a scheme marker down, but later on Mech Rider is super good at that and makes up for the slow start. And when it comes to schemes, unlike when it comes to killing, you don't need to be super-quick.

In other words, Mech Rider isn't replacing Langstom but rather the Molemen and therefore it doesn't matter that what she does during the two first turns isn't as much as could be expected from 12 stones since later on it's much better. Also note that Mech Rider is super-durable later on and, unlike three Molemen, retains her effectivity even at one third of wounds left (when two of the three Molemen would be dead).

Does that make more sense?

[RagingRodian]

Just because a relatively small group of people at one of the first big Tournaments since M2E broke have not yet figured out how to counter a model does NOT mean that model should be cuddled.

That is an unfair criticism of the situation. I would point out that this thread is much like the Rotten belles one in the way that there is a mess of meta applied, "if you know he is taking X you take Y" discussion, showing that you could possibly counteract OP or NPE models by building your list to take out the problem model, and so on. I can't blame anyone, theoryfaux is fun! We like to talk shop!

But there is a gaping hole in all of these arguments. Remember, the game rules are written as both sides choose their factions in secret, reveal them at the same time, choose your crews in secret, and reveal them at the same time. You cannot start a discussion with "if you know they are taking X...." because you should never know. Even if your opponent says "I am taking Belle spam" or "I am taking the Mechanical Rider" or "I am playing Arcanists" before the game it is perfectly legal for them to pull a switcheroo on you at the moment of truth- and it is perfectly legal. You are expected to have to build your crew having no idea what your opponent is pulling out of that case.....

What we should really be looking at is game balance as it applies to unexpectedly encountering the model(s)- are they way too good for their own good? Are they NPE? How are they when you are facing them flat footed?

So far from what we have seen from Adepticon the Mechanical Rider could well be falling into the "too good for its own good" category.

[NoHero]

One of the people in my meta who also went to Adepticon with me said he realized yesterday that two of the players he played against in the tournament did illegal actions with the Mechanical Rider. Something about Turn 1 you can't get all the suits you need to do something because you need 2 and your at a minus.

[Victoria]

Just answering questions about my hubby's crew since there have been some questions about what the first place crew was!

 

He played 2 games with Marcus, 2 with Colette, and 1 with Raspy.  He did not use the mechanical rider in any game.

[RagingRodian]

Just answering questions about my hubby's crew since there have been some questions about what the first place crew was!

 

He played 2 games with Marcus, 2 with Colette, and 1 with Raspy.  He did not use the mechanical rider in any game.

I know one of my friends would be very interested in what he was taking with his Collette crew!

Care to share?

[Victoria]

I'll ask him tomorrow what he used for his Colette games - he is asleep right now.  But I do know that under normal circumstances every single one of his crews is situational on the board, schemes, strategies, and the opponent that he is going against.  He has no fixed list unless he is in a tournament that requires one.  

[RagingRodian]

I'll ask him tomorrow what he used for his Colette games - he is asleep right now.  But I do know that under normal circumstances every single one of his crews is situational on the board, schemes, strategies, and the opponent that he is going against.  He has no fixed list unless he is in a tournament that requires one.  

Understood! He is just starting a Colette crew and was trying to see what people were actually using for them. Any insight would be cool!

Right, I will quit going off topic now. Back to your regularly scheduled programming!

[mythicFOX]

@ RagingRodian

 

While you're right to a point that you don't know what your opponent will chose to play, you can be prepared for their options.  When facing Ressers I have to consider playing against Belles and Nurses when building my crews, even though I don't know my opponent will have them in their crew.

 

It's also worth noting that 'countering' a model isn't all in the list building.  Learning how to play against a given model on the table is important, knowing your opponent's crew also feeds into your scheme selection.

 

In this way it's right to say players will figure out how to play against / counter a model.

[r4st4f4n]

@ RagingRodian

 

While you're right to a point that you don't know what your opponent will chose to play, you can be prepared for their options.  When facing Ressers I have to consider playing against Belles and Nurses when building my crews, even though I don't know my opponent will have them in their crew.

 

It's also worth noting that 'countering' a model isn't all in the list building.  Learning how to play against a given model on the table is important, knowing your opponent's crew also feeds into your scheme selection.

 

In this way it's right to say players will figure out how to play against / counter a model.

 

Said - said - said I remember

when we used to argue

over a certain OMFGOP! Rail Golem

in Trenchtown...

Everything's gonna be all right!

[Gorbad]

And the things that are good against the Riders are good against Arcaniats in general, things like blast and pulses, conditions and to a lesser extend Wp. And if you can remove suits or prevent triggers that is very good as well. As well as lots of little attacks.

Not that its easy, but the 'tech' needed against the riders aren't that specialised that it will be a waste against other models.

[doubledragon]

I have to agree with the side that is saying, "Once you have figured out how to deal with the Mech Rider, it's not OP."

When I first started bringing it to the table in my meta, my opponents didn't know fully what to expect from it, and it won me a few games. But now that they know what to expect and how to deal with it - I now struggle to get 12 souls stones worth of use out of it in a game. My opponents now either kill it or tie it up before half way through the game. I've had my Mech Rider die quite a few sad deaths before it does anything of use early on in the game when it's so squishy, and then I am on the back foot. Perdita, Hans, Nino, Taelor, Johan, Chompy, Ikiryo are all models (off the top of my head) that have gone through my mech rider like mince meat. Chompy bits swallowed her whole in one go (when she was on full 10 hp).

I do only use the rider with Colette (one of my two Arcanist masters, the other is Marcus). I find that her being able to summon mannequins that come in with 1 hit point is not all that useful - something just has to stare at that 1 hp mannequin funny and it falls over dead.

Now that my meta knows how to deal with the Mech RIder, it is no longer an auto include for me.

I play with the Pale Rider in my Guild lists, and I find him more effective than the Mech Rider. He does 2 things, and he does them well - placing scheme markers and killing stuff. The Mech Rider does a bunch of stuff - summoning, shooting, placing scheme markers but none of them all that well. Take the scheme marker shenanigans for example, with the Pale Rider, I can place 2 (3 if I'm lucky) in one turn, where I want them - just by walking to where I want to be. With the Mech Rider I can place 2 if I'm really lucky - I have to shoot at an opponents model, hit and do damage - and then after all that, who says the opponents model is going to be where I want to place my scheme markers?

I wish I could play the Pale Rider with Colette. That would be OP.

[Ausplosions]

Dear Malifaux community, myself included.

Please stop asking for changes for finalised models every second week and after every event that has more than 4 people. It isn't going to happen and Justin is probably screaming at his monitor telling us to argue so vehemently about things actually in Beta.

Regards,

Ian.