The Mechanical Rider needs to be nerfed.

[benw]

I've played arcanists probably a dozen times in m2e with just the book 1 masters. I find myself taking the rider in most crews since wave 2 as it adds a lot to any crew.

It is my opinion that the mech rider is great for helping you get your objectives done and scoring high. There are better models to disrupt/deny/kill your opponents crew than her. And the mech rider is not the first model to make any list. I would rather take Howard with Ramos and snow storm with raspy before I see about fitting in the mech.

All riders are good IMO. All are worth it for 12ss. They are really hard to kill late game but not impossible - just get creative. Not just pulses or blasts, but decapitate triggers are great and also models that deny defensive triggers to stop the damage reduction. Or just paralyze them.

So my conclusion. Riders are awesome, I find mech rider hard not to include in a competitive list for Ramos and raspy benefits too. They are not a must however and as my opponents have learnt to deal with them they lose some of their might. I am just glad that you get something good for your 12 stones.

[Drool_bucket]

As stated above.

 

Riders are 12 stones, they should influence a game more than a little.  But they are particularly fragile early turns.  So if you are hiding a 12ss model early, opponents need to captialize on that fact.

 

Plus, you just have to whack them a little early turns, assuming the Rider player doesn't have much Healing in play.  Then you can papercut them a bunch.

 

Their Defense is not absolute, there are hard counters. There are also other great ways to deal with that aren't hard counters, but soft ones like Obey(s), Slows and Paralyse.  

 

But finally, I think part of the current problem is that they are new and uncommon in many parts while being a "easy" model to use.  This combination usually leds people to think they are OP until it gets around how to "deal" with them.

[hypoking]

In beta it was Gremlin hordes, then it was Lynch, last week it was Belles, tonight it's Mech Rider's turn to enter the 'M2e OMG OP' hall of fame. I expect we'll admit many more members to it.

Bayou gremlins got cuddled in the penultimate update of that beta. Lynch and the ever lasting huggy got fixed with the nexus cuddle. You aren't citing flavor of the month problems, those were mechanical imbalances that required a few swings of the great boffer hammer to put things on an even keel.

[Jordon]

I've used mech a few times now as well in a multitude of lists and overall it's certainly good, but never did I or my opponent think it was OP. My opponent plays the Pale rider often and it seems on par with the mech with the big difference being that the mech seems more tactical while the pale is more threatening. I like to compare it with other similarly costed models in our faction like Howard and the coryphee duet and I think they may be more one diminutional, but just as effective in almost every game I played them in. 

 

With regards to the Colette combo. Is it really anymore potent then pairing her up with Howard or even killjoy? Being able to drop scheme markers is nice and all, but so is being able to assassinate masters via prompt'd killjoys/Langston. 

[Math Mathonwy]

This is where the debate loses credibility to me. With that big a chunk of your crew not doing anything for two turns, what's the rest of the crew doing? If I can bring 45ss worth of my crew against 30ss of yours.......well I'm going to get rid of or seriously damage quite a bit by the end of turn 2 and be in great position going into 3........even if the mech rider has been hiding and is untouched at this point, you're down half a crew and I'm scoring VP.....and in position to earn more.

 

In theory.

To be fair, few models accomplish much on the first turn and on the second the Rider can summon and do Scheme shenanigans, just that she needs to be a bit careful. That's a far cry from "doing nothing".

[dgraz]

To be fair, few models accomplish much on the first turn and on the second the Rider can summon and do Scheme shenanigans, just that she needs to be a bit careful. That's a far cry from "doing nothing".

I disagree. Just about every crew I play either kills at least one model on turn 1, or claims objectives to start earning VP.......I always make a strong push right from the start. And as I said, by the end of turn 2....and going into turn 3 I will have done quite a bit while you're hiding that 12-14ss rider (pending upgrade). If I've killed or virtually killed 10-20ss worth of models going into turn 3.......well, you can summon all the 4ss minions you want.......and several crews can do it...especially if you're not working them/distracting them with your entire crew.........12-14ss worth of model is a lot of model to be sitting in the back dropping a scheme marker.

 

I'm not saying that anyone is wrong. Maybe it is OP, but I can see limitations and paths to victory to deal with the model....I would think an OP model would rob me of that ability. I just think that ZOMG!!! OP!!! cuddle NEEDED!!! is over-dramatic at this stage of the game.....at the least it's premature.

[bigbopper]

Can't see it getting a cuddle to be honest, at least not this soon. This thread shows that people are divided on wether it's to good or not. Time will tell I guess.

[Math Mathonwy]

I disagree. Just about every crew I play either kills at least one model on turn 1, or claims objectives to start earning VP.......I always make a strong push right from the start.

You say you disagree but then you start talking about something completely different. I said "few models accomplish much on the first turn" and you started talking about crews.

And as I said, by the end of turn 2....and going into turn 3 I will have done quite a bit while you're hiding that 12-14ss rider (pending upgrade). If I've killed or virtually killed 10-20ss worth of models going into turn 3.......well, you can summon all the 4ss minions you want.......and several crews can do it...especially if you're not working them/distracting them with your entire crew.........12-14ss worth of model is a lot of model to be sitting in the back dropping a scheme marker.

I often take 12 stones worth of models that aren't designed to kill stuff but rather accomplish schemes. Mech Rider does that extremely well and also summons stuff (and draws cards).

For example, I don't think I've shot once with my three Bayou Gremlins that always take with Ophelia, they have always been worth it and I have yet to lose with her. Similarly, I've often used two Necropunks (10SS) to do schemes - they never kill anything. I mean, it's entirely possible that I play this game suboptimally when taking non-killy models, but I have come to understand that that is how many people play.

[Dracomax]

Can't see it getting a cuddle to be honest, at least not this soon. This thread shows that people are divided on wether it's too good or not. Time will tell I guess.

I agree. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't good, or even an "always consider". Maybe even a hair too good for the cost. The argument is whether or not it needs a cuddle, and honestly, it is waaaaaay to early to call for that.

 

There are a lot of models in the game, of which the Adepticon crews by necessity composed a relatively small part. In addition, the primary focus from which this is drawn was a certain Colette crew built around the rider, along with the feeling by many Arcanists at a single event that they should have taken it after the fact(the worst time to try and pick apart model choice—you know what the results were, so you extrapolate to what you should have taken, as opposed to what was smart to take with the information you had at the beginning).

 

Keep in mind that the Colette player in question is a very good player, and worked very hard on building that list. He discovered some combos and tactics that are very strong together, and it came as a bit of a nasty surprise to others. This always leads to "this is OP and needs to be cuddled" feelings to some extent. The question is whether this particular set-up is as game-distorting as the M1E Filth list, or Dreamer slingshot, or if it is simply something that the game will compensate for with time by people developing effective tactics against it. And that will take time, a few tournaments where people go in prepared for it, and many, many games to determine.

 

So, play, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow, the Mech rides. or something. anyway, go out and play with/against it for yourself. see if you need to bring otherwise useless models, or useless tactics to defeat it.

[Icemyn]

I think the real problem that I am seeing is everyone has set a different bar for what OP means. 

Or rather how oppressive a model has to be before it can be seen as needing a fix. 

 

Personally for me that bar is when a model becomes so ubiquitous as to warp the game around it. 

Are we there yet? no, of course not. 

As I have said I feel that the Mech Rider does too much. It's not the most killy, not the best at completing schemes or drawing cards, certainly not the most powerful summoner. That being said it does all of these things better than 90% of other models to include masters. 

Right now we are not at the point  where the Mech Rider is oppressive, but in 6 months or less I would bet on it. 

 

There seems to be a belief that if you can kill a model or it can be dealt with then it is fair, I disagree. 

If Malifaux becomes Mech Rider vs Things that beat Mech Rider it's not going to be much of a game. 

[Math Mathonwy]

I believe that there's two things that make the OPness of Mech Rider hard to evaluate currently.

One is that there's no new plastic model yet so many people haven't even faced the thing yet. Once the plastic model comes out, we'll see it a lot more and then it'll be easier to gauge it's power level.

Second, tied to the first point, is that since it's comparatively rare, people haven't yet learned how to cope with it. There's lots of things in Malifaux that, when faced for the first time, can seem overwhelming, but when you face them a couple of times you understand their strengths and weaknesses and can react accordingly. Facing, e.g., the Tara bomb for the first time can be an extreme experience but when you have fought it a few times you'll get the hang of it and adjust.

So these two points are a bit at cross purposes to one another but they are both extremely important IMO and I therefore think that it is premature to call for cuddles (or declare that it is entirely fine) on this particular model.

[Dracomax]

I'm not saying that if it can be dealt with, that means it isn't OP. For me, the key comes down to "Do I have to play an entirely different game if there is a chance of model X" and "Does model X consistently create a situation in which the opponent feels like they cannot win"

 

Everybody using a model isn't necessarily a case of OP, so much as it is a case of comptetitive tourney inertia. Generally, based on what I've seen in tourney lists in the past, at high levels, people tend to play from a small subset of crews, and everyone Who plays crew X will bring model Y—Up until somebody comes up with a new, crazy, winning tactic with Model Z, and then everyone with Crew X will bring model Z, and Model Y will become a bit more rare.

 

And the non-competitive players go on playing what they want.

[mythicFOX]

 

As I have said I feel that the Mech Rider does too much. It's not the most killy, not the best at completing schemes or drawing cards, certainly not the most powerful summoner. That being said it does all of these things better than 90% of other models to include masters. 

 

 

That reads like you're claiming it's better at those things than 90% of other models. I think you mean; It's more capable of being an all-rounder than other models?

 

To me ubiquity isn't the core factor around a model needing a fix. We could all decide to play all Hoarcat lists, to point 90% of the models on tables were hoarcats at events. That wouldn't make Hoarcats broken.  IMHO what would make a model X need a fix would be when your primary competitive consideration is using model X and/or how to beat model X. Model X is the meta, rather than part of it.

[Mason]

 

And to be honest things that don't care about armor type abilities will cut straight through them, Sebastian for example can be doing 6 Dg easily a turn.

 

Sebastian - and to a lesser extent, McMourning - really put the hurt on them.

 

I've played with and against the Riders a fair number of times, and if you have access to Burning - whether from Monks of High River, Iggy, Fire Gamin, or just Kaeris or Mei Feng - that rips through them pretty quickly as well. 

[Joel]

they don't real well with any conditions TBH, or splash damage from blasts. 

 

And in this game, if not in chess, Bishop beats Knight (take a look at him, seriously!)

[Icemyn]

That reads like you're claiming it's better at those things than 90% of other models. I think you mean; It's more capable of being an all-rounder than other models?

 

To me ubiquity isn't the core factor around a model needing a fix. We could all decide to play all Hoarcat lists, to point 90% of the models on tables were hoarcats at events. That wouldn't make Hoarcats broken.  IMHO what would make a model X need a fix would be when your primary competitive consideration is using model X and/or how to beat model X. Model X is the meta, rather than part of it.

I meant the former which implies the latter. Given that 90% of models don't draw cards, or that 90% don't summon this is an easy claim to make. If you wanted to limit the search to models that summon and compare or models that draw cards and compare I don't think she would be found wanting. 

 

In reality Ubiquity in competitive events is generally representative of power level. 

[Dracomax]

In reality Ubiquity in competitive events is generally representative of power level. 

Well, no. In reality, ubiquity in competitive events is generally representative of perceived power level. there is a small, but incredibly significant difference.

[decker_cky]

That reads like you're claiming it's better at those things than 90% of other models. I think you mean; It's more capable of being an all-rounder than other models?

 

To me ubiquity isn't the core factor around a model needing a fix. We could all decide to play all Hoarcat lists, to point 90% of the models on tables were hoarcats at events. That wouldn't make Hoarcats broken.  IMHO what would make a model X need a fix would be when your primary competitive consideration is using model X and/or how to beat model X. Model X is the meta, rather than part of it.

 

Hoarcats being broken is what makes hoarcats broken. Consider this - adepticon was dominated by Arcanists. What's the only faction that can take hoarcats? Arcanists. Mech rider on the other hand, can be taken by another faction. 

 

Indisputable proof of hoarcat brokenness. 

[Ratty]

Yeah ubiquity in competitive events is generally caused by Meta shift not necessarily OP'd-ness.. For example Lynch was fairly ubiquitous in the UK a while back, now it's shifted and you see far less of him, this is because some of the people that were playing Lynch have shifted to lists that are good against Lynch, and because some of the rest of the people have started losing more with Lynch (due to people shifting to play counters and people in general now knowing how to play against them) have moved to greener pastures.

 

As long as the Meta keeps shifting it's a sign of a healthy balance, if it stagnates that's when you have to give it a nudge.

[dgraz]

You say you disagree but then you start talking about something completely different. I said "few models accomplish much on the first turn" and you started talking about crews.

 

That's because you can't look at a model in a vacuum.

[Math Mathonwy]

That's because you can't look at a model in a vacuum.

That... doesn't make any sense. In the context of our dialogue, that is. I'll try one more time.

I said that few models accomplish much on the first turn. I usually have many models that just move into position on the first turn and the models that accomplish something are, most of the time, models that move other models, models that have extreme range, very fast models (including extraordinary deployment options) or models that summon other models. I usually don't have many of those types of models (though naturally the ones that I do have, accomplish stuff). In other words, few of my models accomplish much on the first turn.

You disagreeing with this due to crews accomplishing stuff on the first turn is non-sensical.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

The Mechanical Rider def needs some kind of cuddle. Let's consider this:

 

Spare Parts - summon a 4 stone, significant model. It costs a corpse counter, plus a 8 of crows.

Mech Rider - summons a 4 stone, significant model, as a 0 action, using no counters, and needs a 6 of nothing after turn 2. On turn 2 it needs a 6 of tome.

 

Before anyone says it, yes I know that you cannot directly compare an upgrade to a 12 stone enforcer. Yes yes yes, bla bla bla. Look, at how efficiency the rider does it. And it's not just this that is the issue. 

 

Its the free cards, its the free scheme counters, on top of the fact that unless you have some kind of WP attack, there is not much of a way to get through this models damage reduction. She definitely does more work any of the other riders.

 

The only two games I lost at Adepticon were against lists that had the mechanical rider. I was powerless to stop the model spamming. I was always against better a better hand thanks to the draw. And no matter how much I worked around my opponents scheme markers, I was not able to stop the rider from doing a single attack turn 5 and dropping two counters in the same spot which is enough to easily score a full 3 vp on most schemes where counters matter.

 

 

Up to this point, i have not seen this model in action. But, wow, every arcanist list and Levi list should consider this model for competitive play.

[Dracomax]

I like how you completely neglect the fact the mech rider brings them in mostly dead...

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Yeah ask the Dreamer's opponents how much it helps to have models come in mostly dead. ;D

[Dracomax]

Well, I don't know about Dreamer, but many of the Arcanists don't have a lot of healing, so they die fairly easily. Reckoning wise, it can actually help the opponent. I'm not saying it is bad, but you are comparing two entirely different mechanics, with one being an upgrade which costs a marker but gives a healthy model for 2 higher TN on a cheap upgrade, the other is a (0) on an expensive and fairly easily killed if you can target anything other than Df model which brings in nearly dead models of the same cost.

 

Your argument feels like it is saying Ressers get an orangefor 4 guild scrip, but Arcanists get an apple for 3! Apple is OP! cuddle Arcanist fruit!