The Mechanical Rider needs to be nerfed.

[Icemyn]

The title is intentionally inflammatory, but not actually untrue. 

 

I just got back from Adepticon and after playing with/against the Mech Rider and talking with all of my opponents after we all agreed this model needs to be toned down. Will this happen before the wave 2 cards come out? Hopefully, but probably not. 

 

Honestly, the only reason I can think of that this model made it through the playtest is due to lack of actual playtesting internal and external. The model isn't just overpowered for its cost its borderline unfair, playing the model feels alot like cheating. 

 

Here are a list of reasons why:

 

1) At the end of turn 5 you have summoned 12ss of significant models barring absolute catastrophe. You will note this is what the Rider cost to hire. Being that Malifaux is no longer about killing every model your opponent brings, having access to more activations and scoring models than your opponents is not reasonable. God forbid that the strategy is Reconnoiter in which case the Rider will win a quarter by herself no problems. The issue isn't really even the summon it's that it only takes a 6! You get a free significant versatile model and it costs you nothing. Summon a metal gamin or an arcane effigy and your opponent now must spend at least 2ap putting them down. Best summon in the game or best summon in the game?

 

2) She draws cards at no actual cost. A range of 8 and a Ml of 2 with a 10 charge means that if you want to draw 2 cards every every turn there isn't much to stop you. I've found that the one of the little talked about strategies in Malifaux is that if you draw more cards than your opponent you are heavily favored to win. Card Advantage is king even in Malifaux. 

 

3) She drops Scheme markers at again no actual cost. Not only does she drop scheme markers, but she does it at range. You want to take Alits every game and guarantee that you will score it? Take the Mech rider. Is one of the schemes Plant Explosives? If you like free points take the Mech Rider. Protect Territory? Mech Rider. Playing Malifaux? Mech Rider. 

 

Doing any of the above things is going to be very powerful in most games. Being able to not just do them all, but to do them all better than any other model in the game? While at Adepticon I believe it was Archmage that put together this Mech Rider Flowchart.

 

Are you playing Arcanists/Leveticus ----Yes-----> Take the Mech Rider.
                                     |

                                    No?

                                     |

                                 I'm so sorry.

 

There is a reason that 3 of the 4 top slots at Adepticon Masters were Arcanists. 
 

[Csonti]

I have personally started a thread about this during the beta. The result was that they removed the opportunity to get the triggers off from friendly models but all the hard stuff (like summoning) remained pretty much intact. I wouldn't bet on Cuddling it anytime soon but it is always helpful to provide some info about a model's performance in real games.

[decker_cky]

2) She draws cards at no actual cost. A range of 8 and a Ml of 2 with a 10 charge means that if you want to draw 2 cards every every turn there isn't much to stop you.

 

I have a contention against considering the card drawing and scheme dropping to be an every turn thing. Until turn 3, the mech rider is very vulnerable for it's cost. For the last 2-3 turns of the game, it gets potent for sure, but even then, it has no defence against anything it doesn't resist with defence (pulse damage crews wreck it with ease). 

[Fetid Strumpet]

My personal opinion is that the results of Adepticon lend a small amount of support to your position, but like everything else it's going to be aggregate information from multiple tournaments over the year to come that will showcase what, if anything, needs to be done. Otherwise anytime any faction, or model helps in a major way to win a game there could be calls for cuddles.

 

Please understand I'm not saying you are wrong, and I'm not supporting your position either. Just that it's good you brought it up, and it gives the community and the developers a heads up on something to keep an eye on for the long term health of the game, just like the Rotten Belles thread.

 

I don't see any major cuddles to models coming anytime in the near future. If the Rider is indeed broken, and I take no position on this at this time, it most likely won't be changed anytime in the next year or more.

[Dracomax]

I've also had a tendency to not get the (0) more than 2/4 rounds I could possibly have it, So that part really kind of feels like hyperbole to me.

[Icemyn]

I've also had a tendency to not get the (0) more than 2/4 rounds I could possibly have it, So that part really kind of feels like hyperbole to me.

I find it hard not to have a straight 6 on turns 3-5 with a 61% chance to straight flip it. A 6+ of tomes on turn 2 is not exactly difficult. 

[Dracomax]

I find that I rarely have a 6 or 7 in hand, and often get 1-5 on straight flips. but I suppose if you are devoting your hand to making constructs, you could do it. Personally, I'd rather bring in 2-3 a turn with Ramos for the high cards.

[Icemyn]

I find that I rarely have a 6 or 7 in hand, and often get 1-5 on straight flips. but I suppose if you are devoting your hand to making constructs, you could do it. Personally, I'd rather bring in 2-3 a turn with Ramos for the high cards.

Why not both? 

"Devoting your hand" feels like the wrong phrase for an ability that is odds positive to go off without even using one's hand. 

 

Edit: Also consider the models you can summon that aren't silly spiders and don't need scrap. 

[Dracomax]

You must have better hands than me, then, because in general, I have 2-3 cards worth anything, and the rest are usually 5 or lower. I just can't afford to throw an 8 or 9 on the Mech rider's (0) most games.

[dgraz]

I haven't seen crew lists for Adepticon. Was the Rider in every one? 2nd place was Colette, and 4th was Raspy......no idea who 1st was.....so no Ramos I can see yet. I would have thought the best lists would be Ramos since that's where the Rider would really shine.

[The Godlyness]

Funny thing about the rider it makes spiders so it just augments Ramos. It makes ice and fire gamin for Rasputina and Kaeris and metal for mei and mannequins for Collette and arcane for everybody. At little to no cost. So if all the Arcanist players sans one or 2 brought the mech rider every game I think I might need another look. My Arcanist opponent did not take it and he said he wish he did cause he would have won. Which is prolly true. So sure weak early but if it dies turn 1 thst is poor placement. But hey won't convince anyone here.

[AgrilusHunter]

I find that I rarely have a 6 or 7 in hand, and often get 1-5 on straight flips. but I suppose if you are devoting your hand to making constructs, you could do it. Personally, I'd rather bring in 2-3 a turn with Ramos for the high cards.

I run a lot of Necropunks and it's rare that I don't get at least one 7 in hand (for leap). Icemyn is right about the flips too, you are more than likely to be able to flip a 6 than not. I'm not saying the Mechanical Rider is overpower, I haven't played with or against her, but I can imagine combining the Mechanical Rider with a Leveticus crew's card drawing abilities would be very intimidating.

[Icemyn]

I haven't seen crew lists for Adepticon. Was the Rider in every one? 2nd place was Colette, and 4th was Raspy......no idea who 1st was.....so no Ramos I can see yet. I would have thought the best lists would be Ramos since that's where the Rider would really shine.

Every single list did not. I know the 4th place Raspy definitely did. I don't think I saw a Ramos all weekend. 

 

 I can imagine combining the Mechanical Rider with a Leveticus crew's card drawing abilities would be very intimidating.

 

I like the way you think

[Grim]

Did every Arcanist player in the Top 4 have a Mechanical Rider in their crew?

[Icemyn]

It should probably be stated at some point that Adepticon was not fixed list, only fixed faction. 

[Kovaj]

I took second at Adepticon, and my Colette crew had a Mechanical Rider in it every game (and it was pretty critical to my entire strategy). I have no idea about the 4th place Arcanist, but I was told that the 1st place Arcanist player was playing with NO mechanical rider (at least on day 2).

[Joel]

It's good - but then so are all the riders. If you don't kill them early they become near-unstoppable juggernauts. However, they are expensive, vulnerable to 1000 cuts style offence and do take time to warm up. I rate mechanical in the great but no auto-take pile.

[Inquisitor Wall]

I can see no reason not to use Mechanical Rider in a Colette crew as she has such perfect synergy with them.  As it has been stated though, if the opponent focuses on the rider in the first couple of turns it really is not too difficult to kill early on.  Late game all of the riders are really good.  

The required 6 to summon is pretty crazy especially with no other requirements (corpse or scrap).  Getting good significant models late in the game is pretty awesome in most schemes.

[dgraz]

My first thought to this discussion was.......why don't you just kill it? If you're opponent is protecting it for two turns to warm it up, then it's a huge investment in points that isn't doing anything for almost half the game......making it easier for you to bring your full weight against the rest of his crew.

[Ratty]

I think it might again be a Meta thing, if people face the Mech Rider for the first time they might not be aware of how good it gets late game so it's not as high on the priority list as it should be. It will be interesting to see if it balances out due to people running counters and focusing it down early in the game or whether it will continue to be amazing.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yup. Adepticon results are just one data point. A big important data point, but still just one. Going to be interesting to see how things shape up over the next year.

[Icemyn]

It's good - but then so are all the riders. If you don't kill them early they become near-unstoppable juggernauts. However, they are expensive, vulnerable to 1000 cuts style offence and do take time to warm up. I rate mechanical in the great but no auto-take pile.

The difference being the other riders are fairly one dimensional in that they hit things or shoot things reasonably hard. As most people have figured out you don't get to win games by just hitting their models. The other Riders are all certainly good models, they just aren't exactly capable of winning games on their own though. 

 

My first thought to this discussion was.......why don't you just kill it? If you're opponent is protecting it for two turns to warm it up, then it's a huge investment in points that isn't doing anything for almost half the game......making it easier for you to bring your full weight against the rest of his crew.

 

As The Godlyness said if you get your Rider killed turn 1 you probably did something wrong or you get to now kill the aggressors. 

I think you will find the list of models that "don't do anything" on turn 1 extremely large. On Turn 2 with little difficulty it has paid back a third of its cost in significant models. Then again I find the logic of "just kill it" to be extraordinarily narrow minded. 

[Ratty]

The difference being the other riders are fairly one dimensional in that they hit things or shoot things reasonably hard. As most people have figured out you don't get to win games by just hitting their models. The other Riders are all certainly good models, they just aren't exactly capable of winning games on their own though.

Being able to remove a model off a Scheme Marker is sometimes really important. Either so another model can remove it or so the Scheme marker can't be scored, same for models that are taking quarters for recognoiter

[dgraz]

 Then again I find the logic of "just kill it" to be extraordinarily narrow minded. 

Thanks. I've been called worse I guess.

 

Running the risk of being insulted again, but just out of curiosity.........why do you find it "narrow-minded"? Killing or otherwise neutralizing (Bury, Paralyze) are part of the game. I'm big on saying that killing doesn't win games myself, but sometimes, things need to die so you can do your thing.

[Ratty]

Thanks. I've been called worse I guess.

 

Running the risk of being insulted again, but just out of curiosity.........why do you find it "narrow-minded"? Killing or otherwise neutralizing (Bury, Paralyze) are part of the game. I'm big on saying that killing doesn't win games myself, but sometimes, things need to die so you can do your thing.

Killing definitely wins games, Killing indiscriminately with no regard for the objectives doesn't.

Almost every game I look over the table, think something along the lines of I can hold the Turf Marker as long as X does not run into my lines and eat my crew and then aim for taking out that model or neutralizing it. Or I need to deal with those Canines or they will run around all game dropping schemes etc. If I'm fighting Som'er my first priority is kill that dang Slop'auler.