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Sure- I played a bit with the Gunslinger early in learning Tara and didn't have any particular feelings on it, but I was also way less experienced with the game back then, so I'll keep one in mind to give it a whirl. I've had good experiences with Tara running mid-ranged gunners, so expect it would work pretty well...

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I have played Tara a couple times lately and I loved Convict Gunslingers with her.  I went less for one big nasty for her and more for a collection of mid range cost models.  The idea was that giving fast to stuff like Sue, Convict Gunslingers, Librarians, Ronins, or Desperate Mercs let them do their job better.  Doing one damage to a Desperate Merc to give him fast, so he can move and use his wild firing trick twice with Positives ended up doing better than I thought.  More so when they could not charge him and he got to charge instead the following turn and actually killed a model.  It is rare to have your opponent annoyed at Desperate mercs actually performing.  Though they ended up more annoyed with Tara pulled a fast Convict out of the void and let him Rapid Fire and then take one more shot.  In the end only got 5 shots out of that action but drained several soulstones of my opponent.

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FK in general are really good with Tara and the heavies make the synergies with Hannah and Tara together very interesting. The issue there is fitting them all into one list.

And I meant I don't play her as resser. I just don't have the models to play any resser masters yet.

As for where I play recently it has just been at a friend's house or my house but I really want to start going to endgame in Oakland again now that I have a bit more free time. I was talking to hateful darkblack about it a couple of months ago and from what I understand they have some people meeting there regularly but I just didn't have any time to check it out with the holidays(my work gets a bit busier in September-November as well). Hopefully the group there is still going strong and I will be joining them in the next week or two.

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Yeah, I always have trouble with how many expensive Friekorps guys there are. Wish they had some sort of thematic equivalent to Guild Hounds or another cheap option without leaving theme, since most cheap options other than the Desperate mercs feel completely out of place, and I don't like how the desperate mercs play.

 

Games of Berkeley is apparently pushing to get more Malifaux interest, and I've always had a good vibe from them. Then again, my only problem with Endgame was player attitude but that was something like a decade ago...

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I agree, I wish friekorpsmen were 4 points, they wouldn't even have to be as good as they are now but 5 points for a model that still usually accomplishes nothing just like a 4 point model unless your opponent doesn't focus on it... idk. I guess friekorpsmen can be hard to put down for their cost. I just can't see a reason not to try to squeeze in another point or two for Johan, a librarian, a trapper.

I had issues with endgame several years ago as well, they stopped supporting warmachine and hordes at one point because of a disagreement with pp, and although I didn't even play the game, their decision combined with people leaving 40k 5th edition kinda killed the mini scene there for a time. A lot of people left on principle or because warmachine and hordes was their main game.

Games of Berkeley just depends on who is working there, I used to always run into this really angry woman who seemed to hate everyone in the store and just made me not want to be around there at all. (I think they had issues with people stealing models but srsly she was mean, killed the minis scene there for a time from what I understand but I didn't participate much there before so this is just hearsay). But other than that woman everyone who I have talked to who worked there was really great. I talked to one of the guys there a few months ago as well and he told me he would love me to come in and play just to try to drum up interest. But then I haven't had time to go anywhere. So maybe I will give them a call again and see if they still want to do that or have already started a group.

I actually went down to both of these places to play a few times earlier on in the year and I kept asking about malifaux at endgame, I was just too early for hateful and those other guys to start grouping up there I guess. Still I am very much forward to checking out both stores now that I have more free time again.

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The problem with gunslingers is that librarians exist. Imo at least.

 

While I do agree that generally the Librarian does have several advantages over the the gunslinger there are three the gunslinger has that are important to note.  The first is a built in positive to hit.  It means you don't have to worry about cover so much and can use Rapid Fire more freely.  The Librarian generally has three options in the case of someone she really has to hurt is in cover; She can focus shot but gets only a single shot generally.  Or she can Furious Cast and pray.  With out a Charge she lacks even the option of just charging in for attacks and instead has to walk and swing.  In turn the Gunslinger can fire all three shots from Rapid Fire regardless.

 

The second is Triggers on attacks.  The Librarian has some decent triggers, Surge in my opinion being the better of the two.  The blasts are generally only good if you got a strait flip, have the card to cheat, and the weaker initial hit and blast are better than just the Moderate 4 and Severe 5 damage.  With the Gunslinger you have two useful triggers, both on different suits which increases the odds of getting at least one.  The first is on Ram you getting another shot if you do damage.  This is either good when you are rapid firing something like the Rail Golem and you know you will not be doing much damage a hit so every extra hit counts.  Or you are fast and are taking three shots at different targets to try and pick off several weak models.  The second is after damaging you inflict slow on the target.  Slow is always mean.  Generally a game will go 5-6 turns and the average model will generate 10-12 AP during it.  Even losing 1 AP is a 8-10% reduction.  In my game with Tara the gunslinger went after the master and because of the two triggers they burned 3 soulstones preventing damage to try and prevent triggers.

 

Third is a lesser one as the Librarian has armor but the Gunslinger has 8 wounds to the Librarian's 6.  If you use Tara's spell from her upgrade to give fast you are looking at the Librarian being more suspectable to armor ignoring attacks or some master just focusing and attacking to get the one big hit to kill.  This is not the biggest but I have found having 8 wounds is nice having made the Gunslinger fast two turns in a row. 

 

Also not having to worry about horror duels to attack can be nice too if you need your cards for other tasks.

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I agree with all of that and it is all true.  Personally I like the librarian for the heal and the fact that my love Hannah can copy the heal.  Perhaps almost always using the librarian with Hannah has skewed my view of the model, but I also find that the Outcasts faction (or the crews I build) dont really lack for the kind of firepower the gunslinger brings in any case.  On a model to model comparison the Gunslinger is stronger than the librarian in several ways, but I think the librarian does more things that other models (in my typical outcasts crew) dont.  It is very hard to compare the obvious combat benefits of the gunslinger to the librarians heal and the ability to deny suits on casts and things that can have a huge impact on the game but are not exactly easy to analyze in the same way.

 

In short I think gunslingers are good with tara (I have tried one once and it preformed incredibly well, maybe not the largest sample size of games but hey), but I feel like if I am picking models for a tara crew more often than not I am going to spend the 7 points on a librarian simply because I am likely to have already chosen models that fill a similar role to the gunslinger for the rest of the crew and the librarian brings "more" to the crew that isnt already partially covered.  I dont know if this last paragraph makes sense its a bit hard to explain.  If you needed exactly what a gunslinger brings and didnt already have it in the rest of your crew, then I think it would compete much better with a librarian.  Obviously if you like different crew compositions than I do this might not apply and the gunslinger might be much better for you.

 

Tara needs more points in her lists.  There is so much cool stuff you can do :(   Or just make all the outcasts cheaper!  Yeah thats a good idea :D

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On the Librarian vs. Gunslinger argument in a Tara list, I'd say that the Librarian has more synergies with Tara, given the WP resist (occasional debuff vs. never), Hannah (who's very quickly becoming a staple) and her spell duplication, and that she benefits more from Tara's Fast more (the argument for gunslinger flexiblity is actually a little in favor of the Librarian in my opinion, since the somewhat unique Fast shores up a weakness that otherwise is factored into balancing the piece).

 

However, rely too heavily on synergies or one type of attack (CA in this case, particularly if you're taking the NB as one of your heavies), and you can get screwed by a strong counter. So, there's definitely a place for a piece outside of a thematically cohesive set of abilities, so a little synergy with a crew is sometimes actually better than a lot, regarding flexibility.

 

...and that's kind of the long way of saying "I think I need more experience to make a call." Especially with Malifaux, I always feel like theory can only get you prepared for the feel of a piece, rather than actually get you understanding of it.

 

 

On too many points... just take Karina ;). I know some day I'll have bad luck with her (or people will learn to kill her ASAP), but until then I'll be coasting on an extra 15+ points of non-sluggish summons a game being chucked around with relative freedom, meaning I don't need to worry quite as hard about cheap pistols or middle-weight melee pieces when it comes to crew composition. More seriously, I've found that Tara really only needs a module of her Unbury upgrade and 1 bury upgrade or model to function at at least 4/3 efficiency for most of her tricks, so I'm starting to get a lot more flexibility out of her lists, if going for the really stripped-down version. When I build a list these days, I usually need to decide how focused I want to be on getting those tricks to work, since there's that always tiny-feeling SS pool...

 

 

On stores in the East Bay, I always thought those guys were kind of aggressively opinionated, must've been gone before that dispute. Without details, I could easily imagine them being justified or just feeling right. On Games of Berkeley, I think I know who you're talking about, and yeah- I think it's just suspicion coming off as meanness, because I've made a habit of being friendly/clear with her, and she's much more professionally polite/sometimes casual with a good impression.

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Here's one trick I've used somewhat often with the Nothing beast that I haven't seen written or duplicated.

 

If NB is in the thick of it, I'll have him go first and take a 1ap action for defensive (discard a card), then take a second 1 ap action for defensive (discard a second card), Cast his (0) (discard a card, hand size is now 3 and NB's def is 6) and then make one attack with casting expert, or 2 attacks if fast.

 

This is really great for tying up a lot of enemy models in combat NB's /// rng of 3 and 50mm base can catch a lot of enemy models, and then they are forced to deal with a def 6 ++ model. If they hit him, cheat in one of your higher cards and now he's def 7 ++ or let him get hit as he'll hit them back thanks to his (0) action. With his new 0 upgrade he can really cost your opponent a lot of ap to remove.

 

This trick also makes NB viable outside of Tara crews.

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Interesting idea, but it seems like his 0 and maybe a card on defensive would be plenty- while it's nice to play towards the void stuff, that assumes you have a bunch of junk cards and that you don't want to spend them on other useful discards (such as Temporal Shift or plain old Flurry), and that your opponent doesn't just blast him with spells (which ignore the ability and often target WP, circumventing defensive and his high df that you've just dumped your hand to achieve) while there are plenty of pistol fighters who just sh in melee, so while they'll likely miss, they're not risking anything.

 

With void pieces, I'll more freely spend my hand, but won't go out of my way to do so, and I feel like it's a trap to put that much investment in one piece in dumping your hand, and, by the time you're taking 3-4 void pieces to get a lot of mileage out of spending your hand freely, you might as well run a tara list. I'm not saying the stars won't align where you're surrounded by melee chumps and have a poor hand, but... IDK, I don't really understand trying to tank with a glass cannon as a strategy to aim for.

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Interesting idea, but it seems like his 0 and maybe a card on defensive would be plenty- while it's nice to play towards the void stuff, that assumes you have a bunch of junk cards and that you don't want to spend them on other useful discards (such as Temporal Shift or plain old Flurry), and that your opponent doesn't just blast him with spells (which ignore the ability and often target WP, circumventing defensive and his high df that you've just dumped your hand to achieve) while there are plenty of pistol fighters who just sh in melee, so while they'll likely miss, they're not risking anything.

 

With void pieces, I'll more freely spend my hand, but won't go out of my way to do so, and I feel like it's a trap to put that much investment in one piece in dumping your hand, and, by the time you're taking 3-4 void pieces to get a lot of mileage out of spending your hand freely, you might as well run a tara list. I'm not saying the stars won't align where you're surrounded by melee chumps and have a poor hand, but... IDK, I don't really understand trying to tank with a glass cannon as a strategy to aim for.

 

All I can tell you it's that the times I've done it (and yes I am selective about choosing appropriate times to do this) is that it is extremely effective.

In regards to shooting an engaged NB, they risk hitting their own models, sure they can just cheat to miss etc, but that is costing them cards as well.

Then again, even before the new upgrades I never found the NB to be a glass cannon. I don't think I've had a game where he's died before turn 4, and most times I would say he survives until the end of game (especially now with the new upgrade).

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I was referring to things where you can us sh attacks in melee. Yeah, most people don't fire into melee unless they have a very good reason to.

 

Regarding the Nothing Beast survival, that's... extremely surprising. Do you just play him really conservatively or something? Given your post count, are you in a young meta so people haven't figured out countering incorporeal stuff/generally targeting gaps in defenses? I mean, if I saw something like that coming up relatively frequently, I'd just grab one of the relatively common ranged magic users etc. and zap him away without worrying about his high DF or retaliation, and spread out my line so he wasn't able to engage that much at once.

 

 

I usually have him come roaring in and wreck up the place by getting 2 fast activations very close to each other, and get dragged down after the surgical air drop. On a bad day, he kills around his cost of what I want to die; on a good day, he wrecks the enemy line and lives to see a third activation, or fourth if I've aggressively reburied him or the first strike meant my opponent couldn't concentrate resources. He does what glass cannons do, which is kill a bunch of stuff then fall over unless it did its job exceptionally well- I don't see how you're not getting the response of "Oh, big scary thing that folds to most non-standard attacks? I should use some of those."

 

edit: Oh, I do remember tanking him once to see how easily that Transmortis scenario could be broken... it was easily. But I still don't see it working against an even moderately experienced player.

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I don't think you can discard more than one card for defensive. It states discard a card and then spend AP equal to the defensive count.

 

Also void shield should help to keep him alive.

 

 

He's suggesting taking two separate Defensive (1) actions rather than a single Defensive (2) action. That would have the same effect aside from requiring an extra discard.

 

 

He's suggesting taking two separate Defensive (1) actions rather than a single Defensive (2) action. That would have the same effect aside from requiring an extra discard.

 

Decker has it right. 

 

It is being a little gamey, but I haven't found anything in the rules to say you can't do it this way.

Really though, void creatures are the only reason to do it this way, I'm taking it as 2 separate 1ap actions so that I can discard more cards.

 

Cadaver:

I do play in a relatively new group, though I've been playing myself since 1st ed.

Though, I don't think that has a huge impact on the effectiveness of my tactic. Also, it's not something I'd do against a crew full of non projectile casting. If I find myself against a crew without a lot of casting, this is a great trick and works well. 

 

In regards to having NB last me most of the game, I don't know what to tell you. I'm typically quite conscious about lowering my hand size quickly. Anything below a 7 in a Tara crew I consider expendable (unless it's a mask and I'm up against a lot of SH). My mindset in a Tara crew is typically to get down to 3 cards in my first activation, whether that be through NB discards or Tara pulsing fast. Typically I save my last 3 cards for defensive duels.

 

I mean NB has incorporeal, I find it easy to keep him either out of LOS or in cover until he's locked into combat. I also find that with, void shield a lot of opponents are just not interested in attacking him at all.

 

I'll also never take Tara when my opponent declares Neverborn. Dopplegangers in my opinion just pose too much of a threat to my Tara build.

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One thing about that tactic is that you ARE sinking a lot of resources into one already expensive model. It becomes more effective as people bunch up more, which is more common with newer players (if you can lock up 3 models like that, it's probably good value, but more experienced players will work to avoid giving you that opportunity). 

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Eh, I can see it working, but like Decker says, you don't tend to see a lot of bunching once people are moderately experienced. It's an interesting approach, but I'm still not really seeing the NB as a particularly defensive piece. Maybe I'm just in a magic/condition-heavy meta, but I usually find that, while it's easy to deliver the NB with no/minimal damage, he still gets spelled to death pretty quickly after he makes his move.

 

If I'm going for the "tanking with retaliatory damage" thing, I find Bishop or Killjoy a lot more threatening, and neither of them require you to change your playstyle/dump your hand. Then again, recently I've been experimenting more and more with taking a minimum of Void models and using Tara/Karina/a DM/maybe Hannah as my core bury list and enjoying a little more flexibility since I'm not punished for holding on to a decent 5-6/non-suit 7. I'll keep the tactic in mind for when I'm pulling out a Void list, though.

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Decker has it right. 

 

It is being a little gamey, but I haven't found anything in the rules to say you can't do it this way.

Really though, void creatures are the only reason to do it this way, I'm taking it as 2 separate 1ap actions so that I can discard more cards.

 

Cadaver:

I do play in a relatively new group, though I've been playing myself since 1st ed.

Though, I don't think that has a huge impact on the effectiveness of my tactic. Also, it's not something I'd do against a crew full of non projectile casting. If I find myself against a crew without a lot of casting, this is a great trick and works well. 

 

In regards to having NB last me most of the game, I don't know what to tell you. I'm typically quite conscious about lowering my hand size quickly. Anything below a 7 in a Tara crew I consider expendable (unless it's a mask and I'm up against a lot of SH). My mindset in a Tara crew is typically to get down to 3 cards in my first activation, whether that be through NB discards or Tara pulsing fast. Typically I save my last 3 cards for defensive duels.

 

I mean NB has incorporeal, I find it easy to keep him either out of LOS or in cover until he's locked into combat. I also find that with, void shield a lot of opponents are just not interested in attacking him at all.

 

I'll also never take Tara when my opponent declares Neverborn. Dopplegangers in my opinion just pose too much of a threat to my Tara build.

 

 

That's not how any of this works!!!!!!  :)

 

I would side on that's not how defensive was intended, however there seems to be a precedence set. Interact is also worded as a (#) and you can definitely take two different AP(1) interact actions. So I would say that doing two different defensive AP(1) actions is not intended, but I would also say that your statement about the rules not limiting that is accurate.

 

As for the topic at hand, I tend to slingshot Mr. Nothing beast with Tara, however I always take KoE and use the + on initiative to have Tara pull him back in the void to keep him alive at the start of the next turn. I've found even with Void Shield he is still a glass cannon and if I keep him out, he dies.

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Hmm, not really seeing why there's a problem with taking 2x defensive (1), since I don't think the action is one-use and Defensive is a stacking condition, though I still wouldn't probably do that unless my hand was complete trash and I was running void-heavy

 

I agree, like I stated, it might not be intended, but there seems to be no rules preventing it. And surprisingly it is something to consider with a void heavy crew and crappy hand :)

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  • 1 month later...

Maybe we should pinn this topic? I mean is a great source of information about Tara.

 

One thing i test yesterday and i want to share was the classic "Bomb" . I use it with two models (Killjoy and Desolation Enginge) i pick also 2 Trappers and a Death Marshall, and the 5ss in upgrades for Tara and a Oathkeeper in Tara and Desolation. I go for that crew in a Reconnointer, alpha strike the summoner and trying to hurt so much the enemy crew. It did not work the first time but i will keep using.

 

Im thinking in Hannah and Bishop as other models to "bomb". I think that 4 are maybe the best option, also including the The Nothing Beast in a Top5.

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