Perdita the Killer

[vilow]

Hey,

 

I'm after my first game against Perdita (well i'm still inexperienced ) but it's first Master that wiped out me without any problem It was 35 ss game (turft war, assasinate, vendetta), i had 2 illuminated, 2 beckoners lynch and super HD option. Perdita (Trick Shooting) was with 2 eagle guys, Francisco, Santiago. Well i was hiding behind soft cover but still lost 1,5 illuminated in one turn due to Perdita's shooting alone - she used ignore cover. I gave up after turn 3 after loosing most of the stuff. I have charged Perdita with HD but Francisco saved her ith "Enfrentate a Mi".

 

In summary i was shocked by the amount of the firepower + push/move tricks they have. Any idea how to fight against it?

[Dirial]

It seems many inexperienced players have this kind of problem when they first take on a ranged heavy crew. I can give you some advice from the perspective of a Perdita player.

 

First, and probably most important: Check if you have enough terrain. 25-50% of the table should be covered by terrain, and a good chunk of it should block LoS.

 

Second, don't go after Dita as long as her bodyguard still lives. In most cases that will be Francisco. His El Mayor bonus makes her insanely survivable. Kill him with great prejudice. Use Beckoners to Lure him away from his crew.

 

Third, don't think anything can survive her. Seems like you have seen her in a relatively forgiving setup. If she brings Papa Loco, the Vengeance Bullet and a Student of Conflict, you're about to see the true horror that is Perdita Ortega. experienced players confronting beginners with this obviously want them to quit fast, although it's not insurmountable. If you want to bind her in melee you should assume that that model will die. Don't let that discourage you. This game isn't won by killing.

 

If you bring Hungering Darkness, keep him in cover. She cannot ignore cover and Incorporeal at the same time.

 

Abilities that damage her without a duel are a godsend: Blasts or that thing where Lynch discards Aces for damage take her down fast.

 

Ortegas are always starved for cards. Just keep taking pot shots at her. Something will get through. Prefer Ca actions to Sh actions because of her trigger. Beckoners have some good ones but are expensive: You should have something in melee with her to distract her.

 

As always, don't forget the victory conditions. Killing everyone isn't going to win the game in most cases. If he only brings Enforcers and Henchmen, try a Scheme like Make them suffer, for example.

 

I'm sure others will chime in with further advice.

[dgraz]

I'll be a little traitorous for you.....I'm a big 'Dita player.

 

Kill 'Cisco first. It'll be scary....if he has Diestro on and you don't kill him once you engage him you'll get shot to pieces. Use Huggy because you can re-summon him....and he is going to die.......but once the Ortegas lose their key models they are in a lot of trouble.

 

Without that big Defense, 'Dita becomes much more vulnerable....she may be Df 7 base, but she has one of the lowest Wound stats around. Once 'Cisco is gone, swarm her and eventually she WILL fold. Remember that her 'Relocate' is directly toward, so with proper positioning, you can cut down her avenues of escape. I recommend you engage Santiago with anything at this point to prevent him from shooting into the 'Dita melee....anything will do.

 

If he is using Austringers, then he is cutting down on the amount of movement the Family can have....make him pay for that.....by taking out some of the Family members, it drastically reduces their mobility.

 

The Ortega Wp is quite high, so Beckoners will have an uphill battle. You posted in the NB forum, so I assume you're playing Lynch as NB......I might consider dropping a Beckoner for a Silurid. They are the Austringer bane.....they can hide out of LoS and the bird can't target them....move from cover to cover to close, then Leap and charge the Austringer.....with the Trigger for extra attacks, you should be able to shut them down. I'm not a NB player, so there may be better options for that.

[dgraz]

Good advice from Darial.....one thing I forgot to mention......don't be discouraged by death. When I play 'Dita, I take great pains to kill at least one model turn one.....the more expensive the model the better....and 'Dita can do it. This is just psychological warfare.....to scare the opponent and get them back-pedaling. Don't let it get in your head.....press in and press hard.....if you sit back, hiding in cover you're going to lose....the Ortegas love it when you take your time. Then can react well to early pressure, but usually can't keep it up.

[Falconrider]

Having played against Perdita's crew many times i can tell you they are frustrating to face.  Having said that i have only used Perdita once and it felt like an adult beating up a child, very dirty indeed. 

[Bodiless]

I had essentially the same experience as the OP last night. My opponent was also a relatively new player, but I just got rolled. It was bad to the point where it honestly made me question if this is a game I want to be playing - if I wanted to march my army into the teeth of a gunline with precious little chance of reaching it alive I could go pick up my Tyranids again. 

[MasterDisaster]

I've brutalized my friends 'Dita crew on the regular. The key is to prioritize your targets. Get Francisco down ASAP. He makes 'Dtia so much more infuriating to deal with. Papa Loco can also be a royal pain in the backside so he needs to be dealt with. Ortegas tend to cluster fairly close together to take advantage of their movement tricks and shooting into combat tricks so you can take advantage of this with Blasts and the likes. As others have said take out the enforcers that support 'Dita and then swarm her to death. With only 10 wounds she can't take sustained punishment. The Enslaved Nephilim can also give them some really good movement tricks so if he's about you may want to nuke him fairly quickly. If you can force their hand to become empty early in the turn they start to suffer quite quickly so take advantage of this and press hard and fast when their hand starts to diminish. Again, focus on your objectives and kill when you need to. 

[Dirial]

I had essentially the same experience as the OP last night. My opponent was also a relatively new player, but I just got rolled. It was bad to the point where it honestly made me question if this is a game I want to be playing - if I wanted to march my army into the teeth of a gunline with precious little chance of reaching it alive I could go pick up my Tyranids again. 

 

In our play group Rasputina has a similar effect on new players. I think it's normal for ranged crews because they are so devastating in the early turns. If you are discouraged by this and try to hide, you are doomed. Take it in stride (and be aware that you will lose things) and keep the pressure up and they will fold.

 

Oh, and take a good look at the board and try to identify shooting lanes. Cross those and don't follow them along. Ortegas love a shooting range, but they abhor a maze.

[Gipsy_Danger]

Divide and conquer. The Ortega's are a lot to take on all at once, but like everyone's been saying if you can take down a few key models you'll have a much better chance. Always go for Francisco and Papa Loco first, and in the early turns against ranged crews sometimes it really doesn't hurt to take up a Defensive Stance if you can because they can't ignore it like they can ignore cover

[Bodiless]

I've brutalized my friends 'Dita crew on the regular. The key is to prioritize your targets. Get Francisco down ASAP. He makes 'Dtia so much more infuriating to deal with. Papa Loco can also be a royal pain in the backside so he needs to be dealt with. Ortegas tend to cluster fairly close together to take advantage of their movement tricks and shooting into combat tricks so you can take advantage of this with Blasts and the likes. As others have said take out the enforcers that support 'Dita and then swarm her to death. With only 10 wounds she can't take sustained punishment. The Enslaved Nephilim can also give them some really good movement tricks so if he's about you may want to nuke him fairly quickly. If you can force their hand to become empty early in the turn they start to suffer quite quickly so take advantage of this and press hard and fast when their hand starts to diminish. Again, focus on your objectives and kill when you need to. 

 

Given that her crew tends to cluster together and has massive movement shenanigans, how in the world do you swarm it to death? The Enslaved was tucked safely behind the wall of enforcers in my game - I don't know that I even got within range of it much less actually threatened it. I'm running the basic initial Lynch crew, which is to say I've added Graves/Tannen/Doppelganger/Beckoners to the Dark Debts box, which is to say I have no blast weapons. So, if Perdita's crew is moving as a coherent mass down the field, with the Nephilim and Cover Me active, and has open sight lines, how does anything in my crew arrive alive to start attritioning it down?

[zFiend]

Given that her crew tends to cluster together and has massive movement shenanigans, how in the world do you swarm it to death? The Enslaved was tucked safely behind the wall of enforcers in my game - I don't know that I even got within range of it much less actually threatened it. I'm running the basic initial Lynch crew, which is to say I've added Graves/Tannen/Doppelganger/Beckoners to the Dark Debts box, which is to say I have no blast weapons. So, if Perdita's crew is moving as a coherent mass down the field, with the Nephilim and Cover Me active, and has open sight lines, how does anything in my crew arrive alive to start attritioning it down?

 

I had similiar problems going against Ophelia with Lynch, who is the Gremlin-Perdita. They might just not be a good match-up, Lynch against a very shooty crew when they are so heavily melee oriented or fragile just doesn't turn out well for Lynch. 

 

If you find a way though, be sure to give me a shout out  

[Bodiless]

I had similiar problems going against Ophelia with Lynch, who is the Gremlin-Perdita. They might just not be a good match-up, Lynch against a very shooty crew when they are so heavily melee oriented or fragile just doesn't turn out well for Lynch. 

 

If you find a way though, be sure to give me a shout out

 

This is what I am starting to worry about. That Lynch is so hamstrung against gunlines that I will basically need to pick up a second master and crew if I don't want to get rolled each time I come up against one.

[Dirial]

This is what I am starting to worry about. That Lynch is so hamstrung against gunlines that I will basically need to pick up a second master and crew if I don't want to get rolled each time I come up against one.

 

Don't get me wrong, but I don't believe that Lynch is hamstrung against gunlines. It's his traditional crew that struggles somewhat but nothing prevents you from taking models that fare better with Lynch. Consider Sue against Ca heavy crews and Stitched and Waldgeists or Silurids against Sh heavy ones. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight

[Bodiless]

Don't get me wrong, but I don't believe that Lynch is hamstrung against gunlines. It's his traditional crew that struggles somewhat but nothing prevents you from taking models that fare better with Lynch. Consider Sue against Ca heavy crews and Stitched and Waldgeists or Silurids against Sh heavy ones. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight

 

 

I hear what you are saying, but for a new player this is a godawful frustrating answer. I've only recently gotten into the game, and picked up the models that 'go with' my master. To find out that I will need to buy a completely different set of models to deal with an archetypal build like a gunline makes me regret getting into the game at all.

[Fireuser]

I look at it more as playing a primary faction as opposed to a Master.  When I started, I just had Seamus and a handful of Rotten Belles.  Then I came to learn that this crew isn't very good at some things, but I still liked the game so I started to look at other models in the faction.  Then with the discovery of Punk Zombies, I was able to add what my crew was missing - - some melee punch.

 

The Punk Zombie may "go with" Nicodem, but it turns out that with the way that I play, they also go with Seamus.

 

Try and hang in there and see if there are any models in Neverborn you think would be fun.  The Spawn Mother (wave 2) can keep making babies for you, and I believe they are hard to shoot.  The babies also have a chance to grow up to be Silurids.

 

Aslo, Ortegas (and Kin) might be the killiest crews in the game.  They are also pretty straight forward, easy to use, and forgiving of mistakes.  Perdita = Easy mode while Lynch isn't.

[Bodiless]

Would just adding Stitched give me enough resilience to cross a swath of open ground to get at them? I'm really hoping not to rebuy my entire crew...

[Malicte]

Well, as mentioned the key thing is to seek cover while closing the distance.  Both cover in the sense of mechanical cover, soft or hard, but also in the sense of breaking LoS when possible.

 

As mentioned above, make sure you've got enough terrain on the board.  If you stack it all together, it should cover at least a third of the board, and most of it should probably block Line of Sight.

 

Furthermore, when the Ortegas are lined up in a gunline, what they aren't doing is moving around accomplishing schemes.  You should be able to get access to large portions of the board without being in direct firing lines, which either breaks them up or they ignore you and you control that portion of the board.

 

Having options to generate cover when none is available certainly helps too.  Yes, Perdita can ignore cover, but the rest of them can't.  A Stitched does help a lot here, and also happens to be a pretty great model, plus is in-theme (gambling) for Lynch.

 

Lastly, having played a bunch of Lynch myself I can say this:  His crew can hit like half a dozen trucks.  In addition, chunks of it, especially Illuminated and Huggy, are deceptively tough.  If you've got cover, and Perdita ignores it, she's not ignoring the Armor on your illuminated, and she's not ignoring the Incorporeal on Huggy.  Without great relative flips she's probably not going to chew through your force that quickly, and while you may lose one unit moving in, the rest should eat their targets in melee.

[Bodiless]

Well, as mentioned the key thing is to seek cover while closing the distance.  Both cover in the sense of mechanical cover, soft or hard, but also in the sense of breaking LoS when possible.

 

As mentioned above, make sure you've got enough terrain on the board.  If you stack it all together, it should cover at least a third of the board, and most of it should probably block Line of Sight.

 

Furthermore, when the Ortegas are lined up in a gunline, what they aren't doing is moving around accomplishing schemes.  You should be able to get access to large portions of the board without being in direct firing lines, which either breaks them up or they ignore you and you control that portion of the board.

 

Having options to generate cover when none is available certainly helps too.  Yes, Perdita can ignore cover, but the rest of them can't.  A Stitched does help a lot here, and also happens to be a pretty great model, plus is in-theme (gambling) for Lynch.

 

Lastly, having played a bunch of Lynch myself I can say this:  His crew can hit like half a dozen trucks.  In addition, chunks of it, especially Illuminated and Huggy, are deceptively tough.  If you've got cover, and Perdita ignores it, she's not ignoring the Armor on your illuminated, and she's not ignoring the Incorporeal on Huggy.  Without great relative flips she's probably not going to chew through your force that quickly, and while you may lose one unit moving in, the rest should eat their targets in melee.

 

If I have learned anything over years of wargaming, it is that you can never rely on a table to have decent cover against a gunline. I think the Stitched are getting upgraded to must-have. On a more general note, using cover seems to be a double-edged sword. Most of my hitting power is in melee, and with the exception of Hungry using cover means slowed movement and more time exposed to fire. In this game Perdita had Entourage/Breathrough revealed, so I really had to engage them unless I just wanted to concede max scheme points. The strategy was Reckoning, so again I couldn't just let them pick me off at their leisure. 

 

Between the Enslaved Neph, Enfrente a Mi, Where'd He Go?, Cover Me, Diestro, etc. I'm not so clear on how I end up eating them in melee. They have so many options to keep distance or move out of melee or just shoot into it, even once I reached melee I basically got one or two swings before the target moved away and the rest of the crew lit me up.  Not to mention that Faster 'n You meant that one charge caused more damage to me that it did to the target...

[dgraz]

Wait.....you had Reckoning and 'Dita had Entourage/Breakthru........and you needed to engage them or concede max points?

 

You realize that they need to be on your side of the table for those Schemes? And they'll need to kill you too for Reckoning?

 

So...........hide. They need to come to you. Don't go running across the table at them......just wait. Make them commit.

 

Some of your other comments don't make sense to me either...........'march your force into a gunline like Tyranids'......why would you do that? Playing Tyranids may have trained you that you need to run in.....as Yoda says 'Unlearn what you have learned'.

 

'Using cover slows movement'.....well yeah, but if you move so that you're out of LoS turn 1, the enemy needs to move first before they can shoot you, then you'll still have cover....then next turn, they've moved so you can either get at them, or you move again.....there are movement tricks you can use too.......Illuminated needs to move out so it can charge? Use a Beckoner to Lure it....I don't play Lynch, but I know there are other movement tricks available to set up.

 

'You can never rely on a table to have enough cover'. WRONG. If you don't have enough cover there is a problem and you need to make some terrain right away. This game requires proper terrain. If you don't have enough terrain gun-lines or ranged casters will be OP.....if you have too much terrain then they will be severely handicapped. It is imperative to find the proper balance of terrain.....especially if one crew is all melee and one is all shooting......one or the other is wiped if the terrain isn't balanced.

 

You listed a whole bunch of abilities above, but before that post people had already given advice on how to mitigate several of those things.....disregard that advice at your own peril. I'm not a Neverborn player, so I can't give you specific advice there, but things people have said already about the Ortegas is sound.

 

Don't be discouraged if you get beat early on. This game is different than most others, and takes some time to get used to.

 

Also.....one big thing here.......the game is properly balanced at 50ss.........playing smaller games WILL make some crews appear more or less effective.

[Bodiless]

I definitely appreciate the time people are taking to help me here, and I know I am getting a lot of good advice. I guess what I am struggling with on the advice given is the execution of it, because in many cases I don't understand how I would have actually carried it out last night. Some examples:

 

"Focus fire on Fransisco". Ok, excellent. Given that the Ortega crew outranges mine by multiple inches, how do I do this? One option given was using Lure to get him out of position, but Perdita has the upgrade that gives out +2 Wp so this was very much not a sure bet. Plus his crew had the Enslaved Neph and could move him back if needed. So I had to rush him in melee, and deal with the damage. I did eventually kill him, but by that point I had taken enough damage that my force was no longer really viable. I never got close to getting a shot on Perdita. 

 

Schemes: I deployed first in this game, so I deployed centrally. He deployed down one flank that would bring him out into a clear area near my deployment zone.  So, in order to prevent him from just waltzing into my zone and scoring max points I had to cross that empty area to engage him. That was where the charging into a gunline occurred. Basically all of my damage potential with this crew is in melee, so if I remain at range against a gunline I'm just letting him attrition me down. I took Assassinate as one of my schemes, thinking my crew is good at killing things, but apparently this was a rookie mistake against Perdita. I also made a mistake in moving Hungry up to Heed Nino into taking a shot at Perdita on the first turn, which did essentially nothing, and then he was promptly firing-squaded. 

 

Size: We were playing at 45ss, so I think we were ok there. This is a slow-grow league though, so reaching 45 took most of my available models. 

 

Terrain: It was a VERY open board, several of our veteran players commented on it. Ultimately I think that was my undoing, which is just frustrating. The board was set up ahead of time by someone else, much like at a tournament, so we just sat down and started playing. If things turn so delicately on how much terrain there is I'm afraid I can see a lot of frustrating games in my future. 

[hippodruid]

It really sounds like the terrain in this game was what did you in.  If the game has a clear no-man's land in the middle (4-8" of no terrain), you have every right to ask if you can place more terrain or if the terrain in play can be rearranged to inhibit line of sight somewhat.  You don't even have to declare a faction before the board is built, let alone build a crew.  Malifaux is designed to be played with a healthy amount of terrain.  Skimping on that will only end in frustration against shooty crews.

 

Below is an excellent terrain selection and placement guide, along with some of the balance concerns too little or too much terrain can cause.

 

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/98548-terrain-and-you-or-why-is-master-x-op/

[dgraz]

Dammit! I did a look for that very thread....couldn't find it and started typing. Well, here's what I typed anyway.....but that thread is good.

 

Terrain: It was a VERY open board, several of our veteran players commented on it. Ultimately I think that was my undoing, which is just frustrating. The board was set up ahead of time by someone else, much like at a tournament, so we just sat down and started playing. If things turn so delicately on how much terrain there is I'm afraid I can see a lot of frustrating games in my future. 

If several vets commented, then you know there was a problem there. Don't settle for a pre-set table if it looks sparse......especially for newer players, this can be a problem....and really, it CAN ruin the entire game.....you have the perfect storm of that.....mainly melee vs possibly the best shooting crew in the game across an open field.

 

It does need to be fairly balanced terrain-wise, but it isn't as delicate as it may seem. Three things are important here......the size of the terrain, the type of terrain, and the amount of terrain.

 

You should have a mix of terrain.......soft cover, hard cover, blocking, impassable, severe, etc......some pieces of Height 0, severe terrain is also helpful so it doesn't skew too much against the shooters (small ponds or mud pits)........there shouldn't be any huge pieces.  3x3 to 5x5 is good for a forest/hill table.....stand-alone pieces of 1-2" are also useful (like barrels, crates, rocks, lone trees, etc).....buildings that you can enter and move through can be bigger......but if they're more than 6x6, then they should have rooms inside to break it up.

 

Take all of your terrain and place it all together on one side of the board. At MINIMUM it should cover one-third of the table.....it should not cover more than half the table.....anything in between is okay. Then spread it all out.......I usually make sure that there is at least 3" between any pieces of severe and/or impassable terrain (so larger models can get through).....there should always be a path....but it should never be a straight path. If you set up a town with a big street down the middle, you're in trouble again (if you must play in a town, make the streets run diagonally....and there should be stuff in the streets like crates or lamp posts or wagons, etc).

[Dirial]

As written above, if you get blasted apart by ranged crews, terrain is the first thing to check.

 

Remember: losing more than he does on turn one and two is normal against ranged crews and should turn into the opposite on later turns. Because of this, it's important not to give up too early.

 

Lynch is a great Master and has a very strong (if somewhat elite) thematic crew. Beckoners, Mr. Graves and especially Illuminated are widely considered very strong models. This crew should be able to take on most crews, so there is definitely no need to "rebuy your whole crew". Against dedicated ranged crews like Ortegas or LaCroix, modifying your crew somewhat is recommended but, in general, the Darkended crew is very able and also, in general, the Ortegas are very beatable.

 

So check terrain, check victory conditions, and hang in there.

[Bodiless]

Ok, thanks everyone. So, if I was going to sum up.

 

1. Fix the board before fixing my crew. 

2. See 1.

3. Adding some Stitched Together to provide additional cover would not be a bad plan.

4. Either go all in on taking them out, weathering casualties in the first two turns as needed, or leave them alone completely. 

5. Start by peeling off key support pieces like Fransisco and Papa Loco before taking on the rest of the crew.

 

Sound about right? And is this a good general plan for other shooty crews, like Ophelia?

[dgraz]

1 and 2 are every single faction, every single master, every single game, every single time. Once you're used to playing and you want to throw in some terrain diversity for a challenge that's all good (I have this crazy cavern system that covers the whole table and we play it sometimes because it presents new tactical challenges) but until you know what you're doing, stick with standard, balanced terrain.

 

3. Couldn't hurt. Waldgeist might be a good choice also. Here's another suggestion to think about when you start expanding your collection.....Terror Tots. One or two with Lynch is perfectly acceptable.....they are great for objective running, but against Ortegas specifically, they can get into the lines on turn 2....engaging Santiago in melee completely kills his support....a Terror Tot can kill the Ens. Neph. which seriously cuts their mobility. And Papa...go ahead and blow yourself up to kill a Terror Tot. All three of those Ortegas are bad in melee, so without one of their movement tricks, they'll have a hard time getting away or even killing that high Df Tot.

 

4. Almost......going all in is threat saturation. You throw so much at them that they can't counter it all......you need to be careful about it though....when facing a crew like the Ortegas that can assassinate any one model they want to, they will go after the best target....your key pieces. Activation order is important here......throw the cheaper stuff first to eat up activations so they can't combo on your best guys.

 

I seriously doubt you will ever be able to leave them alone completely. They are fast enough to close the distance and be on you......but many times, they won't move too far on turn 1 (waiting for you)....if you stay back that turn or only move slowly and cautiously, they will have lost that turn worth of killing and will be forced to move in again.....hopefully where you can reach them. You could be prepping for later during that time....or setting up for VP.

 

5. No matter how you handle them, you need to do this. Everyone is so concerned about 'Dita....ignore her to get 'Cisco. He is normally near the front and he needs to be target number 1 .....uhm....every single time

 

You're going to take casualties no matter what you do. Hesitating is suicide. The Ortegas can throw out a mass of death....but once they start breaking up (by death, engagement, whatever) they become more staggered and less lethal en masse. They love hesitation because they can kill a lot if they are unmolested.....but when pressured, they start to fold. All of them. 'Dita and 'Cisco are less concerned about Melee (in fact, they're better off attacking in melee) but they have low Wds ('Dita is one of the lowest Wd stat Masters in the game) and 'Cisco's Df is average at best.......the others suck in melee. If you can get several models into the crew, they'll have nowhere to go with their movement tricks and they'll start folding pretty quick.