Natty

I asked this question a long time ago and was told that it worked on your own models to activate them after the opposing models. The wording on a card takes precedence over the book, so they CAN'T activate until every other model has, even though the book says you are supposed to activate a model. I need to leave soon so I don't feel like searching for the thread. Also, for the record, using this correctly is utterly broken and not fun to play against. What I did to dominate a tournament (and will never do again) was to run 4 Silurids with the Doppleganger, Pandora, and her totem. You put the Silurids in the bubble, then after the opponent has finished activating you use their almost unrivaled move speed to hop all 4 across the board and get 4 models worth of attacks (2 attacks each with blood frenzy for up to 2 bonus attacks each). Then the Doppleganger should give you initiative and you companion all 4 Silurids as your first activation the next turn and get 4 more models worth of attacks before they get to go. In every round of the tournament (except the round where the guy quit on turn 2 before I even did this particular trick), I was able to take out every single non-master model on the opposing team with upwards of 32 Silurid attacks (2-4 attacks per model with 4 models over 2 turns before they can even attack back). It's broken and shouldn't work like that.

They are all at Gencon so I wouldn't hold your breath for a ruling. Give it a week =)

I just want to stress that sentence again. Pandora removes any immunity to willpower duels. Pandora requires a willpower duel to attack. Perdita ignores required duels when targeting. Perdita can shoot Pandora. This paragraph is true because ignore is not the same as immune. So let's rephrase what I said but let's rephrase those sentences, replacing "immune" with "ignore". Pandora removes anything that IGNORES willpower duels. Pandora requires a willpower duel to attack. Perdita ignores required duels when targeting. Perdita CANNOT shoot Pandora. See what I'm driving at here?

Ignore and immune are two totally different things. This was made clear in posts long ago. Nothing in the new book seems to change that. If ignore and immune were the same thing, then Perdita wouldn't be able to shoot Pandora without testing wp->wp, which we all know isn't true. The Performer can't be ignored, which doesn't mean her talent can suddenly affect things that are immune.

Agree. Repeat that like 10 times. It is especially crappy for Pandora since taking Bodyguard is almost a given unless you are up against the guild. Bodyguard on Pandora is either 2 free points, or, even better, your opponent putting all his resources into killing Pandora, which is basically the best you can hope for because then your minions have free reign to do whatever they feel like. (Not to mention that I've played games where people put all their resources into killing Pandora and still can't manage it.)

In my experience, Perdita is by no means unbeatable with Pandora. The big problem is that I tend to use Pandora like a giant mallet and love putting her in the front line (as opposed to Karn's strategies that use her like a scalpel). If you fight Perdita or Lady Justice, you just can't use Pandora like a big hammer. The key I've found is to use her speed to hop in, do some damage, and then hop away. Always save enough cards to get away because if you get stuck out there... that's one dead Pandora. I actually have liked to play defensively against Perdita in the few games I've played against her. Take your time, exploit Pandora's speed, take out Papa, harass Perdita, then, when the time is right, move in for the kill.

I've never played against Hamelin with Pandora, but I imagine that it would require putting a lot of resources (every crow you draw) into making the rat catchers fall back as much as possible. If you keep the rat catchers as far from the front lines as possible with constant fall backs, I am willing to bet a Hamelin crew falls apart. Note that, once again, that last paragraph is total theory-craft as I've never played my Pandora crew against a Hamelin crew. I have played my Dreamer crew against Hamelin and ripped him apart with a Teddy bear terror bomb. The Dreamer really has no problem with Hamelin as long as you use terror appropriately. It becomes fairly easy to have all of your crews immune to the rats if you lay down enough terror (and make any rat that tries to get close take several terror tests). So the key is to take out Nix (who becomes the biggest threat with the rats eliminated) with a first strike. Then, make sure that Lord Chompy himself is never left on the table (which is ALWAYS a goal anyway) so that he can never be made insignificant. Advice for the Hamelin play against a crew with lots of terror, if possible, obey a terror model and have it move away from everything else with terror. Have your rats get + to the next flip before moving them in. It is much more important to get + on your terror flip than on your attack flip. The big problem is the opponent using the Dreamer to drop several terror inducing models right in the middle of everything. It will basically ruin your day and is really tough to avoid.

Hrmmmmm... I usually think of the Dreamer as the master to take for a few specific strategies. If it were a battle to the very end with the only way to win is to completely eliminate your opponent, then sure, Nico would be very hard for the Dreamer. But when you consider the ease that the Dreamer can complete some of the schemes and strategies, it is very difficult to stop the Dreamer from getting full points. So basically it would become a match of just trying to stop Nico from also getting full points and tying the game. Stop a single scheme or strategy and you can then disappear and just run away the whole match.

The only thing that I can think of for Nicodem v Dreamer is that Nicodem has a pretty big threat range by casting through the vultures and can potentially attack the Dreamer before you drop off your attack. I wouldn't list this as a major problem as it can be overcome with careful play even against a perfectly played Nicodem. Just be careful about positioning and always watch the vultures. In general, I feel that Nicodem is just a little too slow to effectively fight the Dreamer and I don't really see him as a threat. Admittedly though, I've only ever fought one Nicodem with my Dreamer crew.

Even in the first turns of the game, Pandora is one of the fastest miniatures out there. The key to a fast Pandora is to use your totem to cast Dementia on your own Pandora, so every action she takes requires a wp duel. The duel can be won with most flips or cheated relatively low to win on bad flips. This means that every action Pandora takes requires a wp duel, which gives you a free 4 inch push. This will generally let you get all the way up the board and cast at least one offensive spell on your opponent, hopefully making them fall back with a crow. Then, next turn, you activate first and make a couple more models fall back before retreating your way back down the board. This gives you a significant board advantage for those speed missions, and perhaps let you cause a wound or two on your opponents guys while you are at it. (Note that I always take a doppelganger with Pandora so I can activate her first [due to the +flip on initiative] if I run her up like a crazy person. Also, I always save high cards in my hand for defense since I tend to use her as a front line master.)

Nekima in a small game really is very risky as the above poster said. Also, with your list, after the first grow, all your blood counters are basically wasted so you can't do any mid-game growing. I wouldn't recommend fielding any kind of Lilith list without at least one extra tot kicking around to use up late game blood counters that you get from opponents.

Haha. I'm back on the forums for all of a few hours and I notice a post about the classic Natty Sorrow Bomb! https://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16777&highlight=sorrow+bomb

Oh, also, I don't see Hamelin as overpowered at all. I see him as a master that even a bad player can do well with because he is hard to play poorly. He is much like Perdita and the Ortegas. They aren't overpowered, but a bad player will think they are awesome because it's really hard to play them wrong. Their abilities are straight forward and hard to mess up, just like Hamelin. <edit> Just reread that post and it kind of sounds like I'm calling the OP bad. That wasn't the intent at all. I have never played against the OP so I have no clue about his skill. All I am saying is that even some random hypothetical bad player would have a really hard time messing up Hamelin because all his abilities are so straight forward and easy to make work. <end edit>

Everyone seems so intent on focused strikes or spells so you don't have to cheat and let Hamelin draw. I don't see the point really. Why not just attack twice? The purpose of focused stuff is when something bad happens when you lose, if you have a minus and want to be able to cheat, or if a model specifically requires it. None of that really comes to mind with Hamelin. Why not just attack twice and don't cheat either time? Think of it this way: Focus means you flip 2 cards, pick the best. Two attacks means that card that was the best is going to get used anyway AND the crappier card gets a chance as well. If they are both high cards, you wasted an action and a high card. Without knowing the tops of each players decks there is no reason to focus against Hamelin that I can see. In all of my games I have barely ever focused my strikes. The game against Lady J comes to mind as the biggest reason I have used focus because riposte is nasty.

My advice for the Viks is to always have 7 or 8 soulstones. The Viks are killing machines and soulstones on the Viks is more dangerous than whatever minion you were going to buy with them. Other than that, they work fairly well with anything. Buy your minions around whatever strategy and scheme you get or want to take.